| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | Professional Translators Against Crowdsourcing and Other Unethical Business Practices Thread poster: paula arturo
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| It is not so simple | Dec 17, 2009 |
FarkasAndras wrote:
Complaining about how "we deserve fair rates and recognition" comes across as whinging. In a market economy, the market decides how much a service is worth and that's that. You can't force people to pay as much as you think is fair.
Try to open a bakery and sell breads under the rates defined by their union.
And you will see the results after one day or two:
(Democratically) Possibly they will sue and make you pay for your actions. You will see crowds in front of your bakery protesting you.
(Undemocratically) They will demolish your bakery
In both case you will pay for it.
Not only bakers, but also drivers (bus, minibus, taxi), miners, industrial workers, farmers etc are protecting rates of their efforts even with undemocratic actions (just look at TV and you will see a lot of primer ministers with tomatoes on their faces).
So what makes this profession unimportant than bakers and farmers?
It seems so easy when somebody works with his fingers on keyboard, and seems that everyone can do it right?
The free market rules applies only on the items that are not considered valuables.
Do you see any free market of gold, petrol, jewellery, automobiles, energy? No. So Why should we see it here?
| | | | paula arturo 
United States
Local time: 17:47
Spanish to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Do you work for free? | Dec 17, 2009 |
FarkasAndras wrote:
In a market economy, the market decides how much a service is worth and that's that. You can't force people to pay as much as you think is fair.
If the market should happen to decide that all translation work is worth $0.00, would you start working for free? While we're on the subject, are your contracts with your clients unilateral or do you have rates that your clients can accept, decline, and/or negotiate? The way I understand it, "the market" consists of several different players trying to satisfy their interests. "The market" doesn't decide pretty much anything, it's the players that make the decisions and translators and interpreters are key players when it comes to deciding our own rates, terms, and working conditions. Of course, how much the other side is willing to pay is a limiting factor, but that's why they call it a "negotiation." The market will never be able to determine a rate of $0.00 unless it finds quality translators willing to work for that amount.
[Edited at 2009-12-17 22:03 GMT]
| | | | Francisco de Azevedo (X)
Argentina
Local time: 18:47
French to Spanish
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| Several replies to previous comments | Dec 17, 2009 |
@Elvira:
Hi there. I would like to reply to some of your comments, with which I partially agree
Elvira Blanco wrote:
There are many kids of freelance professions on the net. The first category that comes to my mind are webmasters. Actually many websites offer the create your website for free, an unethical initiative that could have (and maybe did) endangered freelance webmasters. Do you think all webmasters should sign a petition against such initiatives or take steps to forbid free website template download?
If you deem Webmasters being asked to work for free as unethical (and I totally agree with you on this one), I really do not see anything wrong in writing a petition about it or trying to create awareness around that issue. Is the existence of previous illegal, wrong, or in this case, unethical behaviors and practices a reason not to act when other such practices are committed? I, personally, do not think so.
@Farkas:
Even though I'm not quite comfortable with the tone of your post, I will answer your concerns as best I can.
FarkasAndras wrote:
Criticizing crowdsourcing for damaging our business is narrow-minded, selfish and ultimately pointless.
Personally, I do not think any opinions are narrow-minded and/or pointless and deserve to be called that way, not even yours.
FarkasAndras wrote:
If the model works (the translations are good enough)
Maybe, but since you have not provided any concrete examples or user feedback, this is a highly subjective opinion, particularly because there is a quite significant amount of evidence of the contrary (some of which was mentioned in this thread, and we would be happy to provide you with more information if you like).
About your observations regarding market economy, I am going to keep it short, and say you seem to have a pretty anthropogenic conception of the whole mechanism.
[Edited at 2009-12-17 22:51 GMT]
[Edited at 2009-12-17 23:29 GMT]
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paula13 wrote: FarkasAndras wrote:
In a market economy, the market decides how much a service is worth and that's that. You can't force people to pay as much as you think is fair.
If the market should happen to decide that all translation work is worth $0.00, would you start working for free?
Yes, obviously.
Well, if you insist on translating, that is. More realistically, you should switch to providing a service that somebody actually needs and is willing to pay for.
paula13 wrote:
While we're on the subject, are your contracts with your clients unilateral or do you have rates that your clients can accept, decline, and/or negotiate? The way I understand it, "the market" consists of several different players trying to satisfy their interests. "The market" doesn't decide pretty much anything, it's the players that make the decisions and translators and interpreters are key players when it comes to deciding our own rates, terms, and working conditions. Of course, how much the other side is willing to pay is a limiting factor, but that's why they call it a "negotiation." The market will never be able to determine a rate of $0.00 unless it finds quality translators willing to work for that amount.
"The market" has a supply side and a demand side. I never said that translators have no role in market processes. They ovbiously do.
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Francisco de Azevedo (X)
Argentina
Local time: 18:47
French to Spanish
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| I am confused... | Dec 18, 2009 |
FarkasAndras wrote:
The market has a supply side and a demand side. I never said that translators have no role in market processes. They ovbiously do.
I am a little confused, because in your previous post you said, and I quote:
FarkasAndras wrote:
In a market economy, the market decides how much a service is worth and that is that.
I do not think that could be any clearer. I see no mention to the role translators play in this sentence. By also adding that is that at the end you seem to confirm the initial interpretation some of us made of your first post.
Regardless of this misunderstanding, if you do acknowledge that translators play a significant part in price setting, then I do not understand why you think it is
narrow-minded, selfish and ultimately pointless
to try to come together and tilt the scale in our favor through a petition.
I sincerely hope you will reconsider your position in the light of this common ground we seem to have found and that you will join us by signing, . Needless to say, if you do not, we will totally understand and respect your choice.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.
Fran
[Edited at 2009-12-18 14:51 GMT]
| | | | | Crowdsigning | Dec 18, 2009 |
As I see it, it looks like an invitation to one more 'crowdsigning'.
[Edited at 2009-12-18 05:47 GMT]
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 23:47
French to German
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| The "market" doesn't exist | Dec 18, 2009 |
FarkasAndras wrote:
Complaining about how "we deserve fair rates and recognition" comes across as whinging. In a market economy, the market decides how much a service is worth and that's that. You can't force people to pay as much as you think is fair.
The "market" doesn't exist as such. There are people making decisions that they will pay only so and so much for translations (mostly according to a budget set by purchase departments which have only prices in mind) without actually knowing the work it takes to get translations done. These people may be confronted to other people (namely translators) who accept or reject such offers or offer alternatives.
We should stop digging our heads in the sand by making the "market" responsible for each and every thing. It is bad enough to see that our inability to act in a businesslike fashion has turned the "market" into a farcical place where buyers decide about prices.
And if we insist on the abstract notion of a "market", we should also think about a basic "law" of economy, namely: Bad money chases good money away, which I would transpose in Bad translations chase good translations away.
[Edited at 2009-12-18 08:02 GMT]
| | | | Tim Drayton
Cyprus
Local time: 00:47
Turkish to English
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| Crowdsourcing not my competitor | Dec 18, 2009 |
I do not for a minute perceive translation by crowdsourcing to be a competitor in the market segement in which I work. I specialise in providing accurate translations of complex legal documents rendered into plausible English. My target client group realises that they have to pay a premium for this sort of service. Imagine if five star hotel chains ganged up and petitioned for the closure of all cheap doss houses!
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Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X)
Poland
Local time: 23:47
English to Polish
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This letter is absolutely ludicrous. In a while I haven't read something that would sooo miss the point.
How about protesting against people baking their own bread? After all, bakers have spent years learning their trade. In some countries they're even licensed.
How about taking down Wikipedia, a project built on this ugly 'crowdsourcing' entirely? After all, being a scientist is not a hobby - it's years of sweat and tears to obtain that PhD, shouldn't it be compulsory... See more This letter is absolutely ludicrous. In a while I haven't read something that would sooo miss the point.
How about protesting against people baking their own bread? After all, bakers have spent years learning their trade. In some countries they're even licensed.
How about taking down Wikipedia, a project built on this ugly 'crowdsourcing' entirely? After all, being a scientist is not a hobby - it's years of sweat and tears to obtain that PhD, shouldn't it be compulsory for Wikipedia to buy its content from the best graduates of selected universities?
Now seriously. What sense does it make to sign petitions on how a private business obtains its inputs? It's not like they hire 12-year-old children or spill sewage in rivers. They ask users to help translate. This has no ill effect on anyone except for people who want money for something that can be obtained free.
If the translation is bad, it is the site that suffers. The site has private owners who can ruin it as much as they want.
If the translation is good, that is a reason for some of us to think if we should perhaps specialise more, so we don't have to compete with amateurs at zero rates, or switch profession altogether.
No offense but the letter reads like something spawned by a child. Not in terms of langugage. In terms of content. Not only will translators gain nothing but upon reading of that petition people might consider us insane. Absolute rubbish.
[Edited at 2009-12-18 15:13 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | MMUlr
Germany
Local time: 23:47
English to German
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| Our signature is gone - :-( | Dec 18, 2009 |
Yesterday, we signed the petition, approx. as the 4th in the row, now it is gone! What is the reason why? Do we have to sign again?
| | | | | I totally agree with Neil | Dec 18, 2009 |
Neil Coffey wrote:
As it stands, this petition just makes the people signing it sound like silly, uninformed whingers and does no service to our profession whatsoever. It's either based on false claims, or needs to substantiate the claims it is making.
If there are thousands of people around the world willing to spend a few minutes of their time helping other users I'm not sure that's necessarily unethical. It may be a bit *inconvenient* to the person who's trying to make people pay for something that others would do for free, but I'm not sure that necessarily makes it *unethical*. We weren't born programmed to make our living selling translation and nothing else; it's what we chose to do at the end of the day.
Now if crowdsourcing actually results in translations that are unfit for their purpose, that's a different matter. But if that's the case, it would be helpful to the cause to provide some actual examples and evidence of this, rather than just whinging.
Like it or not, you have to accept that there are some types of translation that *don't* require somebody specifically trained/dedicated to translation (are you really saying that 100 bilinguals, "certified" or not, can't between them figure out how to translate the phrase "my friends"?).
In the cases of translation where a genuine aptitude for writing and/or genuine technical knowledge is required, is there evidence that people with these skills are not among the people providing their crowdsourced services for free? Is there any actual evidence of, say, a German PhD student who has spent several years reading in the target language on a daily basis, doing a worse job than a "professional" German translator in the field, or doing a job unfit for the purpose to which the user of the crowdsourcing system intends to put it?
Don't get me wrong-- as a translator myself, I'm all for standing up for our profession. But it needs to be done with rational argument and concrete evidence, not just pure bluff and whinging.
[Edited at 2009-12-17 18:34 GMT]
And as for trying to garner sympathy by calling ours "an already suffering industry", why should anyone else give a damn?
If professional translators and interpreters are soon to be replaced by machines that do the same work instantly and free of charge, then all the better for mankind. Our only concern should be to make sure the profits don't end up in the pockets of the same few per cent of people who currently own the bulk of the planet. If we succeed (which of course we won't), we can look forward to a two-day working week and six months of vacation.
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 23:47
Italian to English
In memoriam | We should be thanking the crowdsourcers | Dec 18, 2009 |
If it were not for Babelfish, crowdsourcing and other zero-cost providers, prospective outsourcers would have no way of putting a value on a professionally written translation. The better the quality of zero-cost translation, the better it is for the translation industry as a whole because this raises the bar for human translators and stimulates professionalism.
In any case, translating for clients who are interested primarily in cost is a mug's game. Good translation, like good cop... See more If it were not for Babelfish, crowdsourcing and other zero-cost providers, prospective outsourcers would have no way of putting a value on a professionally written translation. The better the quality of zero-cost translation, the better it is for the translation industry as a whole because this raises the bar for human translators and stimulates professionalism.
In any case, translating for clients who are interested primarily in cost is a mug's game. Good translation, like good copywriting or good journalism, will add value by enabling the client to generate revenue and, ideally, should be charged on that basis.
Giles ▲ Collapse
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paula arturo
United States
Local time: 17:47
Spanish to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Missing signatures | Dec 18, 2009 |
MMUlr wrote:
Yesterday, we signed the petition, approx. as the 4th in the row, now it is gone! What is the reason why? Do we have to sign again?
Since we had to make some corrections (including moving the link from TEBP1 to TEBP3) some of the signatures were lost. I know it's a big inconvenience, and am sorry to say that those who signed before we fixed it, will have to sign again if they are still interested. My apologies.
As far as the rest of the comments regarding whether crowdsourcing in any way competes with translators, whether or not companies will crowdsource their important documents, etc. I'm simply going to remit myself to my initial reply to Neil as I feel none of the concerns that have been introduced since then objectively disprove any of those points.
@ Neil: I respect your opinion and appreciate that you took the time to share it. You’re right, anyone can translate “my friend” but not just anyone can translate user agreements, privacy statements, and other adhesion contracts on the site. You wrote, “In the cases of translation where a genuine aptitude for writing and/or genuine technical knowledge is required, is there evidence that people with these skills are not among the people providing their crowdsourced services for free?” Yes! Read your user agreements on both sites in any given language… they were crowdsourced! If you run a little google search, you’ll find there has been quite a lot of public criticism to these sites thanks to errors in their legally binding, crowdsourced, contracts.
They’ve also come across problems in certain languages, like Turkish, where users thought it would be funny to translate error messages as insults.
Crowdsourcing does not end there though, a few days ago, a very large pharmaceutical company published its new strategy for having its current bilingual employees translate all its protocols, informed consent forms, etc. using crowdsourcing.
A major software company announced the day before yesterday it’s encouraging its 400,000 work force in 170 countries to “contribute” to the development of “an automatic language translation tool.” The program will rely on internal crowdsourcing and statistics to render real time translation.
| | | | Williamson
United Kingdom
Local time: 22:47
Flemish to English
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| Look how good I am.... | Dec 18, 2009 |
the idea of crowdsourcing comes from the open source software idea. AFAIK, Linux is a functioning Operating System.
Here we go again: " look how good I, the translator am, so good that you will pay for me" and look how bad crowdsourcing is". Any idea why Adobe has crowdsourced most of its translations? Any firm that can get free quality translations will not hesitate to do so and not everybody in the "crowd" is an amateur. Open source software is the result of programmers working after ho... See more the idea of crowdsourcing comes from the open source software idea. AFAIK, Linux is a functioning Operating System.
Here we go again: " look how good I, the translator am, so good that you will pay for me" and look how bad crowdsourcing is". Any idea why Adobe has crowdsourced most of its translations? Any firm that can get free quality translations will not hesitate to do so and not everybody in the "crowd" is an amateur. Open source software is the result of programmers working after hours and translators translating the manuals for free that go with this open source software.
[Edited at 2009-12-18 17:08 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
France
Local time: 23:47
French to German
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| Litte difference | Dec 18, 2009 |
Williamson wrote:
Open source software is the result of programmers working after hours and translators translating the manuals for free that go with this open source software.
The difference being that this very software or OS is available at no charge for everybody. A***e programs (and the documentation that comes with them) have to be bought for hard cash and certainly not for a song.
As per FB, the use of the site is "free" only in a certain sense. Someone pays for running the site and everything coming with it: the advertisers. And please don't tell me that the mentioned site or other similar ones do not make any benefits out of it.
[Edited at 2009-12-18 17:52 GMT]
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