| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | Professional Translators Against Crowdsourcing and Other Unethical Business Practices Thread poster: paula arturo
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Francisco de Azevedo (X)
Argentina
Local time: 03:38
French to Spanish
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| Adding to Elvira s input | Dec 20, 2009 |
Hi Elvira, you make a very strong point. I would like to add to it by commenting on your following statement:
Elvira Bianco wrote:
The point here is: will they really be able to produce quality translation using this platform? If the answer is yes, they can (I absolutely do not know) than we can fight it refusing to use SDL software. Crowdsourcing and translation machine alone will not produce any competiteve translation. It is the human professional contribution involved in TM creation that can change the translation quality. In a previous thread someone talked about the translator s right to refuse using its copyright on the TM he creates.
If we are sure SDL is working against our interest why should we buy their products?
In my understanding, what SDL and Lingotek are trying to accomplish as translation software and service suppliers is, in the long run, to completely cut out of the picture (or the translation process/chain) freelance translators and perhaps even agencies.
For now, their business has consisted (and still consists) in selling us software that we can then use to provide services to our clients. Given the characteristics of crowdsourcing and the implications and consequences such practice seems to involve, as well as the type of clients Lingotek seems to be going after, if translation software and service suppliers all follow the same line as Lingotek and SDL, not buying their software would only delay the inevitable and put you out of business sooner than if you kept buying their products until translators are eventually completely eliminated from the process. Crowdsourcing as a tool can now effectively be used by these companies to sell products directly to OUR clients (instead of us): they will come a time when they will not really need us anymore.
As to your question about whether or not Machine Translation and Crowdsourcing alone can guarantee quality, my answer is that I do not think so. However, as I pointed out in another thread, if used in combination (MT in the front-end, with crowd sourcing in the back-end enhancing the system and translating vocabulary, expressions, word combinations, etc.), then my answer is definitely yes. On another note, keep in mind that linguistic quality is a constantly moving cultural horizon that can always be redefined by resorting to certain practices in order to meet the definition (and interests) of a selected (but very powerful) few.
P.S.: In order to avoid funky back-slashes appearing all over the place, I had to remove all types of quotation marks from both the quote and my post.
[Edited at 2009-12-20 22:39 GMT]
[Edited at 2009-12-20 22:42 GMT]
[Edited at 2009-12-20 22:46 GMT]
| | | | | | | why exploitation? | Dec 21, 2009 |
People who take part in crowdsourcing projects do so on their own accord... nobody is forcing them to do it! Crowdsourcing will never replace professional translators because its scope is too limited... also, let's not confuse crowdsourcing with MT... they are two different things, even if they can be used together for a certain scope (see article on IBM's n.Fluent). I believe MT is more of a threat to "us" than crowdsourcing...
| | | | Williamson 
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:38
Flemish to English
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Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 08:38
Italian to English
In memoriam
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
I believe MT is more of a threat to "us" than crowdsourcing...
"Opportunity" is the word you are looking for Giovanni.
New technology doesn't just make old skills irrelevant. It also creates new employment opportunities. Frankly, I would never have gone full-time as a translator without the much faster turnaround times permitted by the internet in comparison to the post office (which doesn't seem to miss my business, by the way). It cost - and costs - me time, money and considerable intellectual effort to keep up to date with technological developments, and per-word translation rates have certainly fallen since I did my first paid translations back in the Stone Age, but the increase in productivity has more than compensated for generally lower rates.
Francisco is worried about a concentration of economic power. This is fair enough but that sort of thing has accompanied every step change in human economic history since the spread of agriculture. I'm sure those highly skilled, forest-savvy hunter-gatherers were very put out when the first farmers had to build granaries for their excess crops. Technology creates political problems and sooner or later things get sorted out politically.
Even if Gennady's hypothetical world government were to say "Let all translation be carried out by machines", I'm sure there would still be paid work for linguists with a pulse.
Giles
| | | | Tim Drayton
Cyprus
Local time: 09:38
Turkish to English
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| Confidentiality? | Dec 21, 2009 |
The majority of documents that I translate are confidential, and sometimes I am not even allowed to inspect them until I have signed a non-disclosure agreement. Are clients going to post such documents on the Internet so they can be translated by crowdsourcing? I don't think so.
| | | | | The more I see discussions like this... | Dec 21, 2009 |
... the more I am convinced that crowdsourcing is a great idea and will benefit me quite a bit in the future. That and MT. In 2010 I will do my best to promote both approaches so that potential clients can see the benefits that await them.
Some people spend way too much energy tying their knickers into a knot over MT & crowdsourcing, the dynamic duo of threats that is supposed to send us all off to sleep under bridges and scavenge acorns for food. (Actually, I do the latter - acorn ... See more ... the more I am convinced that crowdsourcing is a great idea and will benefit me quite a bit in the future. That and MT. In 2010 I will do my best to promote both approaches so that potential clients can see the benefits that await them.
Some people spend way too much energy tying their knickers into a knot over MT & crowdsourcing, the dynamic duo of threats that is supposed to send us all off to sleep under bridges and scavenge acorns for food. (Actually, I do the latter - acorn muffins are quite good!) Assuming that these persons are not in the quality range that could indeed be threatened by a pile of circuits or the unwashed masses without superior linguistic skills, their time would be better spent raising prices, upgrading services and infrastructure, and polishing their Auftritt as a business.
If some of my customers really can have their needs met adequately by MT, crowdsourcing or some guy in a yurt in Mongolia armed with a dictionary and a few online language lessons from the BBC web site, the sooner they discover this and stop paying my "ridiculously high" rates, the better. That will free up capacity for others to take advantage of, and everyone will be happier.
Do what you love and what you're really good at, and learn how to sell it. If any part of that last sentence is missing from your freelance equation, it's time to move on to other things. Even without MT and crowdsourcing. ▲ Collapse
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Giles Watson wrote: Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
I believe MT is more of a threat to "us" than crowdsourcing...
"Opportunity" is the word you are looking for Giovanni. New technology doesn't just make old skills irrelevant. It also creates new employment opportunities. Frankly, I would never have gone full-time as a translator without the much faster turnaround times permitted by the internet in comparison to the post office (which doesn't seem to miss my business, by the way). It cost - and costs - me time, money and considerable intellectual effort to keep up to date with technological developments, and per-word translation rates have certainly fallen since I did my first paid translations back in the Stone Age, but the increase in productivity has more than compensated for generally lower rates. Francisco is worried about a concentration of economic power. This is fair enough but that sort of thing has accompanied every step change in human economic history since the spread of agriculture. I'm sure those highly skilled, forest-savvy hunter-gatherers were very put out when the first farmers had to build granaries for their excess crops. Technology creates political problems and sooner or later things get sorted out politically. Even if Gennady's hypothetical world government were to say "Let all translation be carried out by machines", I'm sure there would still be paid work for linguists with a pulse. Giles
maybe I should have put that in brackets as well... I see it as a "threat" because the nature of our work would change. We all know that MT alone is not a threat, because it will still need input from "humans", but our role would shift from translators to editors and I'm afraid I hate editing and proofreading... I was en editor for 9 years and towards the end I just could not stand it anymore... there will be opportunities for people with the right credentials and flexible enough, but I'm getting old and flexibility is becoming problematic...
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| It will be a role for monkeys | Dec 21, 2009 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote: We all know that MT alone is not a threat, because it will still need input from "humans", but our role would shift from translators to editors and I'm afraid I hate editing and proofreading... I was en editor for 9 years and towards the end I just could not stand it anymore... there will be opportunities for people with the right credentials and flexible enough, but I'm getting old and flexibility is becoming problematic...
As an editor and translator, you are well aware of the limits of "editing". A pile of manure might indeed be put to good use with the right processing, but the material itself remains sh*t. It will never approach the quality of a well-translated original. One of the reasons that MT is such a buzz these days (or crowdsourcing [CS, like the gas, also useful to control crowds]) is that there is a real shortage of good translators. I'm sure you've read the relevant reports. What is also in short supply is the ability to communicate effectively with potential clients and plan in a realistic way to grab a necessary chunk of market share to survive. The business of translation is alive and well and will continue to grow for quite a while. That includes the business of human translation, not made-for-monkeys MT sewage. That's one of the reasons I think that so many wannabes are clearing off the far end of their kitchen tables and calling themselves "agencies"; they want to have their part in the Gold Rush.
MT editing will probably be one of those things with which today's three-centers, bored house spouses and starving students can occupy their free time. Sort of like "writers" looking to make a living by creating content for Demand Media & alia Some of us won't have time, because we'll be snowed under worse than ever trying to serve the more interesting clients in a rising wave of demand.
| | | | | Not our business | Dec 21, 2009 |
Sincerely guys, translating stuff for sites like the ones mentioned is very far from being our business.
I have expressed it many times: translating the ten thousand words used in the interface of sites like Twitter or Facebook would not keep a single translator busy for a whole week, so these practices are very far from causing us any harm. What causes us harm is to be seen as a bunch of whiners instead of rock-solid professionals working with clear goals in mind and creating solid... See more Sincerely guys, translating stuff for sites like the ones mentioned is very far from being our business.
I have expressed it many times: translating the ten thousand words used in the interface of sites like Twitter or Facebook would not keep a single translator busy for a whole week, so these practices are very far from causing us any harm. What causes us harm is to be seen as a bunch of whiners instead of rock-solid professionals working with clear goals in mind and creating solid quality and service expectations to our customers. ▲ Collapse
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Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
I certainly haven't seen any Microsoft webpages that were machine translated into Hungarian. All that I have come across so far are obviously human translated. And if Hungarian is not machine traslated, what language would be? Obviously not French or German, and surely not Inuit and Chuckhee - there is no usable MT for languages much smaller than Hungarian...
I know that IBM uses a mixed system (MT + crowdsourcing of internal employees, as stated by lingotech, although I don't know if it has stopped using professional translators altogether) and for Microsoft read this... http://support.microsoft.com/gp/faqtranslation Also, article about IBM's nFluent platform... http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10403523-93.html As you can see, big companies are working towards MT solutions to reduce their translation costs... but crowdsourcing? I doubt it...
Thank you, these were interesting.
Microsoft uses plain old MT for some of the KB articles, with a disclaimer and a link to the English original, I just never came across any of it.
IBM's platform is not really crowdsourcing: the article says it is used for internal communication (IBM has employees in dozens of countries) and the system learns from the corrections made by its users. So the idea isn't having the employees revise the machine translation of a user manual, just machine translating employees' emails sent to each other (and feeding the corrections back into the MT database). It's a bog standard MT setup.
I stated that I know IBM hasn't done away with translators because I happen to translate for them occasionally... Obviously a company of this size will have dozens of types of text from internal communication to user manuals to software strings to marketing material to labeling texts and so on and so forth... most of it is probably handled by professional translators with a CAT of some sort.
[Edited at 2009-12-21 12:45 GMT]
| | | | | Don't be so sure | Dec 21, 2009 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
Sincerely guys, translating stuff for sites like the ones mentioned is very far from being our business.
I have expressed it many times: translating the ten thousand words used in the interface of sites like Twitter or Facebook would not keep a single translator busy for a whole week, so these practices are very far from causing us any harm. What causes us harm is to be seen as a bunch of whiners instead of rock-solid professionals working with clear goals in mind and creating solid quality and service expectations to our customers.
For perspective: translating one element of a large company management software suite (can't name it, sorry) took months and months of work for a team of about 15.
I don't use Facebook or Twitter as I can't stand them, but the job might be a lot bigger than you imagine it to be.
In any case, quantity is the single biggest strength of crowdsourcing. That's what it was invented for. If you don't believe it, compare the size of Wikipedia to that of the Encyclopaedia Britannica... Crowdsourcing won't put (many of) us out of a job, but it's not for inability to scale well. Crowdsourcing scales incredibly well if the task is interesting enough for the masses.
Where it falls down in the case of translation is consistency, quality and feasibility: I can hardly think of any text I ever translated that would make an attractive proposition for would-be crowdsourcing contributors. People will translate Facebook and Twitter because they like the site and they know they themselves and their friends will use the new interface they are creating, and these are community sites to begin with. It's hard to imagine people having a go at translating a financial report or a soil structure analysis for some planned roadworks...
I agree with the rest of your post though.
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| no problem... | Dec 21, 2009 |
FarkasAndras wrote:
I stated that I know IBM hasn't done away with translators because I happen to translate for them occasionally... Obviously a company of this size will have dozens of types of text from internal communication to user manuals to software strings to marketing material to labeling texts and so on and so forth... most of it is probably handled by professional translators with a CAT of some sort.
[Edited at 2009-12-21 12:45 GMT]
do you translate directly for IBM or do you work for one of its translation services?
http://www-01.ibm.com/software/globalization/services/translation.jsp
G
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Kevin Lossner wrote: Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote: We all know that MT alone is not a threat, because it will still need input from "humans", but our role would shift from translators to editors and I'm afraid I hate editing and proofreading... I was en editor for 9 years and towards the end I just could not stand it anymore... there will be opportunities for people with the right credentials and flexible enough, but I'm getting old and flexibility is becoming problematic... As an editor and translator, you are well aware of the limits of "editing". A pile of manure might indeed be put to good use with the right processing, but the material itself remains sh*t. It will never approach the quality of a well-translated original. One of the reasons that MT is such a buzz these days (or crowdsourcing [CS, like the gas, also useful to control crowds]) is that there is a real shortage of good translators. I'm sure you've read the relevant reports. What is also in short supply is the ability to communicate effectively with potential clients and plan in a realistic way to grab a necessary chunk of market share to survive. The business of translation is alive and well and will continue to grow for quite a while. That includes the business of human translation, not made-for-monkeys MT sewage. That's one of the reasons I think that so many wannabes are clearing off the far end of their kitchen tables and calling themselves "agencies"; they want to have their part in the Gold Rush. MT editing will probably be one of those things with which today's three-centers, bored house spouses and starving students can occupy their free time. Sort of like "writers" looking to make a living by creating content for Demand Media & alia Some of us won't have time, because we'll be snowed under worse than ever trying to serve the more interesting clients in a rising wave of demand.
Kevin, I agree entirely... good translators are in real demand... simply, there aren't enough of them... but MT editing will have some role in the future, because MT will become better with time, and will be more "editable"... obviously, I hope I'm wrong, and personally I don't feel threatened by MT or crowdsourcing...
edited for misspelling "editing" lol
[Edited at 2009-12-21 13:22 GMT]
| | | | | Welcome to The Machine? | Dec 21, 2009 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
Kevin, I agree entirely... good translators are in real demand... simply, there aren't enough of them... but MT editing will have some role in the future, because MT will become better with time, and will be more "editable"...
How old are you, Giovanni? I've been hearing stuff like that for more than 30 years and none of the predictions have even been close. In the same vein, I remember my second grade teacher telling me more than 40 years ago that the US would soon switch to the metric system. Outside of laboratories, I think she must have meant "soon" on a geological time scale.
You're right of course that MT will get "better" by various scales of measurement. So what? With controlled language, some of that stuff is editable now, but most tech writers at my clients don't have the discipline to do controlled language in any useful way. They prefer to spell critical vocabulary five different ways in two pages and then throw in some synonyms and their variations just for fun. And do it in dialect once in a while just to keep me on my toes. If MT manages to put us out of business in our lifetimes, come to Berlin to drown your sorrows. We've got a great French wine shop (sorry, Giles) down the road. The bottle's on me.
Better just means that the aforementioned househubbies and starving students will suffer a bit less or at leased be lulled into a sense of false security and let some really dangerous errors slip through. There will still be enough real translation for real translators with marketing savvy to stay busy if they wish to do so.
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