| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | Professional Translators Against Crowdsourcing and Other Unethical Business Practices Thread poster: paula arturo
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Williamson 
United Kingdom
Local time: 00:02
Flemish to English
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| Perception of translation | Dec 19, 2009 |
Hedwig Lugaro wrote:
I agree with David and Laurent.
Besides, they do hire, paying salaries and benefits... so I wonder, why they don't hire transaltors?
For instance, Facebook is currently hiring for the following departments:
Software Engineering
Legal, Finance, Facilities & Admin
Communications & Public Policy
Product Management
IT & Security
HR & Recruiting
Design & User Experience
Technical Operations
Growth & Internationalization
Sales & Business Development
Online Operations
Platform & Product Marketing
Sunny and warm greetings!
Because translators in the normal business world are not considered "professionals", but people who have nothing better to do. (words of a retired trader/banker).
Except at some national and international institutions, there is no career-ladder to be climbed for translators/interpreters.
Did you ever hear of a Sr.VP. of Translation at a multinational corporation. I haven't.
Translation is considered as a necessary cost, a secretarial service... which is worth less than the services of a courier-service. A FedEx-letter costs more than the average paid per hour to translators. For which of the two services will a company put money on the table faster?
In the US, base of the social networks, except for those in the translation industry itself, the general public has no knowledge of what translation entails. The mayority doesn't even know the difference between translation and interpreting.
But back on track: crowdsourcing: a danger for translators or an opportunity to get experience for beginners in this profession. Adobe is not a bad reference on your CV. I have known an IT-person, who started for free and climbed the experience ladder. His current price per day is 500 euros.
[Edited at 2009-12-19 11:16 GMT]
[Edited at 2009-12-19 12:14 GMT]
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M. Ali Bayraktar wrote: FarkasAndras wrote:
Complaining about how "we deserve fair rates and recognition" comes across as whinging. In a market economy, the market decides how much a service is worth and that's that. You can't force people to pay as much as you think is fair.
Try to open a bakery and sell breads under the rates defined by their union. And you will see the results after one day or two: (Democratically) Possibly they will sue and make you pay for your actions. You will see crowds in front of your bakery protesting you. (Undemocratically) They will demolish your bakery In both case you will pay for it. Not only bakers, but also drivers (bus, minibus, taxi), miners, industrial workers, farmers etc are protecting rates of their efforts even with undemocratic actions (just look at TV and you will see a lot of primer ministers with tomatoes on their faces).
In civilized countries, price-fixing is illegal. You can sell your bread for as much as you damn well please (as long as you don't want to sell it below cost i.e. at dumping price). Does the word "competition" ring a bell?
If the other bakers sue and claim that you violated their prearranged price, they're getting fines or jail terms, each and every one of them.
Edit: ironically, your example is better than you think: the members of the Hungarian bakers' union just got fines totalling 76 million HUF (275,000 EUR) this summer for just what you describe: agreeing that none of the members would sell bread cheaper than an agreed minimum.
[Edited at 2009-12-19 12:22 GMT]
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Francisco de Azevedo wrote: FarkasAndras wrote:
The market has a supply side and a demand side. I never said that translators have no role in market processes. They ovbiously do. I am a little confused, because in your previous post you said, and I quote: FarkasAndras wrote:
In a market economy, the market decides how much a service is worth and that is that. I do not think that could be any clearer. I see no mention to the role translators play in this sentence. By also adding that is that at the end you seem to confirm the initial interpretation some of us made of your first post. Regardless of this misunderstanding, if you do acknowledge that translators play a significant part in price setting, then I do not understand why you think it is narrow-minded, selfish and ultimately pointless to try to come together and tilt the scale in our favor through a petition. Fran
I can certainly see that you are confused.
Let's try and clear things up, then.
The market decides how much a service is worth, yes. Translators have a role in setting that price, yes. These are not contradictory statements at all.
Translators provide the supply side of the market and affect prices through their individual decisions on what rates they are willing to accept.
The idea of coming together to raise the prices is selfish without any shadow of doubt, and, depending on how you try to do it, illegal as well. Still, I have nothing against it in general. Being selfish is only natural, and there are legal ways of doing it.
A petition that tries to "ban" schemes that offer free translations on the grounds that they "damage our industry" is certainly narrow-minded and pointless. Narrow-minded because in its fervor to protect our own interests, the scheme forgets about other people's points of view and interests, and proposes a completely backwards method for maintaining higher prices... Petitions work on governments because they are supposed to represent the people and thus, by and large, have to do what the people want. Facebook on the other hand is under no obligation to follow the will of the masses. They are a private business and, as such, do as they please. Because of this, a petition like this is no more than a desperate and misguided cry for attention and support.
Such a petition is pointless, because, for the above explained reasons, there is no way it can achieve anything meaningful.
Clearer now?
Repeating for the sake of those who were snoozing through this discussion: I applaud any attempt that aims to demonstrate that professional translators do a better job than hobbyists - I certainly think they usually do - and I also support trying to convince the general public or clients about that. If you have thoroughly analysed crowdsourced translations and have reliable data showing that they are worse than the average paid translations of comparable material, please share your findings.
[Edited at 2009-12-19 12:15 GMT]
[Edited at 2009-12-19 12:15 GMT]
| | | | | Getting personal | Dec 19, 2009 |
M. Ali Bayraktar wrote: Let them eat cake; I just had a look at the profiles of those who talk easily about the concerns of others and even dare to say the words such as ridiculous, absurd or giving lessons about free markets etc: And this brought to my mind the famous words of Marie Antoinette. She even had no idea about the problems of her people and spoke so easily. Why did she do it? It is ridiculous  The answer is simple: she was not a part of the life lived by the real actors in her country. Doing translations as a part time does not make anyone the real actor of this profession. Because if you don't sleep and awake in the morning only with this you would never feel the real feelings or concerns of others who live and feed themselves only with this profession. Before writing wise words here one should ask himself/herself whether he/she would be hungry if he/she wouldn't do translations at all. (Or simply speaking: Is this my first and the only source of income?) The answer to this question defines your proximity to this profession. And will help you not to offer eating cakes instead of breads.
I don't see how this has anything to do with our discussion here, but let it be noted that translation and interpreting is my only source of income and God knows I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth.
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Giles Watson wrote:
Crowdsourcing is only going to force you to lower your rates if you place yourself in a position where you appear to be in direct competition with crowdsourced translations.
By protesting vociferously, you are effectively putting your services on the same level as crowdsourced work, even though this is not really comparing like with like. For example, your own profile suggests you are good at medical and legal translations, two high-priced, high-risk areas in which crowdsourcing is probably not the best option if the client is looking for a bulletproof target version. You're probably not even at risk of losing very much business.
Crowdsourcing is fashionable at the moment. I'm sure lots of our potential customers will be trying it on for size but quite honestly, any half decent translator ought to be able to provide a better service in his or her specialist areas, with much shorter lead times, at prices that make financial sense to the end client.
Giles
Giles makes a lot of sense... if it were not for crowdsourcing, some services/websites/operating systems would be simply offered in English only... we are not in competition with crowdsourcing... it's a completely different ball game...
[Edited at 2009-12-19 12:35 GMT]
| | | | paula arturo
United States
Local time: 19:02
Spanish to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Yes and no... | Dec 19, 2009 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
...if it were not for crowdsourcing, some services/websites/operating systems would be simply offered in English only... we are not in competition with crowdsourcing... it's a completely different ball game...
[Edited at 2009-12-19 12:35 GMT]
Before crowdsourcing came along services/websites/operating systems were, in fact, offered in other languages. The only difference is that the profitable companies that created them actually paid professional translators to do it. Some of us who specialize in other areas of translation are not directly in competition with crowdsourcing (yet), but those who specialize in IT and related technical areas are.
| | | | paula arturo
United States
Local time: 19:02
Spanish to English
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TOPIC STARTER | For the sake of clarity... | Dec 19, 2009 |
FarkasAndras wrote:
A petition that tries to "ban" schemes that offer free translations on the grounds that they "damage our industry" is certainly narrow-minded and pointless.
Hi Farkas,
I know your post was not addressed to me which is why I'm only going to focus on one point. By quoting the words "ban" and "damage our industry" it would seem those words could be found in the petition, but they can't. The purpose of the petition is not to "ban" anything and it does not contain the words "damage our industry." The thread is getting pretty long, so I just wanted to clarify that for people who are joining in the conversation now.
Best,
Paula
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paula13 wrote:
Before crowdsourcing came along services/websites/operating systems were, in fact, offered in other languages. The only difference is that the profitable companies that created them actually paid professional translators to do it.
some of them were not translated at all... crowdsourcing has enable many people to access services in their own language, services that were out of reach for them before. Crowsourcing fills a gap and it's for a specific use. Do you see big corporations using crowdsourcing for their own websites?
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David Russi
United States
Local time: 17:02
English to Spanish
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| Isn't Kudoz crowdsourced? | Dec 19, 2009 |
Giles Watson wrote:
Isn't Kudoz crowdsourced?
Yes, this site was translated using crowdsourcing. I did not think it a good idea then (and I did not participate in it), and I continue to think that it was a form of exploitation to do so. This site makes money, the employees get paid, and people translating the site should have been remunerated.
| | | | paula arturo
United States
Local time: 19:02
Spanish to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Actually, I do... | Dec 19, 2009 |
[quote]Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
paula13 wrote:
Do you see big corporations using crowdsourcing for their own websites?
4Life
The Library of Congress
GrenX
BYU
IQT
HireVue
University Health Care
Think Troop
Intermountain Health Care
Allan Communication
Allegiance
Martin Engineering
Tahitian Noni
IdentiGene
All these companies are using Lingotek, a crowdsourcing web-based translation platform that combines human and machine Translation and that is offered as a paying service to other clients and companies.
In fact, their own sales pitch consists of putting paid, per word translation in direct opposition to crowdsourcing. "Until now, the per-word cost for translating and localizing product and marketing documents - including websites - has been prohibitive for many businesses wanting to build an international presence, and even many Fortune 500 companies limit translation to only the most critical documents," said Robert Vandenberg, CEO, Lingotek.
Please note: he says "Fortune 500 companies!"
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 01:02
Italian to English
In memoriam | Proz crowdsourcing | Dec 19, 2009 |
David Russi wrote:
This site makes money, the employees get paid, and people translating the site should have been remunerated.
Hi David,
Actually, I was referring to the Kudoz project to build a crowdsourced dictionary but of course you're right: the entire Proz site is localised and kept up to date by crowdsourcing.
To be fair, Proz does offer aspiring localisers some remuneration:
# Receive recognition and a search engine optimized link to your profile when viewed in your language.
# Earn BrowniZ points for every word translated or proofread.
The first benefit is worth having, I would have thought, particularly if you are just starting out, and BrowniZ points get you discounts on membership etc., so there is an exchange of services and the deal is perfectly clear from the outset.
As Giovanni has pointed out, Proz couldn't possibly justify paying to localise the site into the dozens of other languages on the current list:
http://www.proz.com/?sp=localization
Going back to the title of this thread, it seems rather unfair to regard Proz as "unethical" simply because it offers translators into other languages a structured opportunity to showcase their language talents and, indeed, native cultures.
Giles
| | | | paula arturo
United States
Local time: 19:02
Spanish to English
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TOPIC STARTER | This is not about Proz | Dec 19, 2009 |
Hi Giles and David!
Giles Watson wrote: David Russi wrote:
This site makes money, the employees get paid, and people translating the site should have been remunerated.
Hi David, Actually, I was referring to the Kudoz project to build a crowdsourced dictionary but of course you're right: the entire Proz site is localised and kept up to date by crowdsourcing. To be fair, Proz does offer aspiring localisers some remuneration: # Receive recognition and a search engine optimized link to your profile when viewed in your language. # Earn BrowniZ points for every word translated or proofread. The first benefit is worth having, I would have thought, particularly if you are just starting out, and BrowniZ points get you discounts on membership etc., so there is an exchange of services and the deal is perfectly clear from the outset. As Giovanni has pointed out, Proz couldn't possibly justify paying to localise the site into the dozens of other languages on the current list: http://www.proz.com/?sp=localization Going back to the title of this thread, it seems rather unfair to regard Proz as "unethical" simply because it offers translators into other languages a structured opportunity to showcase their language talents and, indeed, native cultures. Giles
As you pointed out yourself, Proz offered some sort of remuneration in exchange for translation services. One could argue BrowniZ + all the other clear and direct benefits = payment. If translators were willing to help out for that price, that's fine. But Proz targeted professional translators, for a professional translation site, and gave them something in return for their help. That is really quite different from what other sites are doing and that is the reason why the petition is specifically addressed to Facebook and Twitter.
Facebook is going as far as to "offer" translation services that rely on its user base for translating business websites and applications for free.
http://mashable.com/2009/09/29/translations-for-facebook-connect/
http://wiki.developers.facebook.com/index.php/Internationalization
I don't think that compares to what Proz did.
[Edited at 2009-12-19 17:15 GMT]
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paula13 wrote:
Do you see big corporations using crowdsourcing for their own websites?
4Life
The Library of Congress
GrenX
BYU
IQT
HireVue
University Health Care
Think Troop
Intermountain Health Care
Allan Communication
Allegiance
Martin Engineering
Tahitian Noni
IdentiGene
All these companies are using Lingotek, a crowdsourcing web-based translation platform that combines human and machine Translation and that is offered as a paying service to other clients and companies.
In fact, their own sales pitch consists of putting paid, per word translation in direct opposition to crowdsourcing. "Until now, the per-word cost for translating and localizing product and marketing documents - including websites - has been prohibitive for many businesses wanting to build an international presence, and even many Fortune 500 companies limit translation to only the most critical documents," said Robert Vandenberg, CEO, Lingotek.
Please note: he says "Fortune 500 companies!"
They are still paying because they have to use Lingotek's software... and they will be "exploiting" their own employees... so it's a completely different matter! And who are the companies you mention? Never heard of them... and I'm sure the bit about the Fortune 500 companies is not even true... can they provide data about this? I doubt it...
[Edited at 2009-12-19 16:02 GMT]
| | | | | I don't see this thread on the main page? | Dec 19, 2009 |
Hi Paula,
Is it me or this thread is not display on the main page? For the record, I fully agree with your post about censorship (which I'll not post because it'd be censored) and that's the reason I didn't renew my membership until a few days ago, I'm starting to think it was a mistake.
Claudia
Edit: I was told that this post is on the main page, but it's not on mine even though my posts are sorted by date.
Edit2: My mistake. For some reason, ... See more Hi Paula,
Is it me or this thread is not display on the main page? For the record, I fully agree with your post about censorship (which I'll not post because it'd be censored) and that's the reason I didn't renew my membership until a few days ago, I'm starting to think it was a mistake.
Claudia
Edit: I was told that this post is on the main page, but it's not on mine even though my posts are sorted by date.
Edit2: My mistake. For some reason, 'Business issues' was unchecked on my list of areas to be displayed on the main page. I still agree with the post about censorship.
[Edited at 2009-12-19 16:15 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | David Russi
United States
Local time: 17:02
English to Spanish
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| It is about respect for the profession | Dec 19, 2009 |
Giles Watson wrote:
Actually, I was referring to the Kudoz project to build a crowdsourced dictionary but of course you're right: the entire Proz site is localised and kept up to date by crowdsourcing.
Hardly the same as localizing the website of a company that makes money and wants to expand into the international market, for example.
To be fair, Proz does offer aspiring localisers some remuneration:
# Receive recognition and a search engine optimized link to your profile when viewed in your language.
# Earn BrowniZ points for every word translated or proofread.
Yes, I guess I should have said "money". I'm not sure this has much to do with crowdsourcing effort, though people who collaborated may have gotten some points, I don't know. In general, if you are just starting out, it could take you many years to build up enough points to compete with the leaders (except, maybe, in obscure language combinations), so the benefit you refer to is dubious. I'm going to ignore the issue of the declining the usefulness of BrowniZ...
As Giovanni has pointed out, Proz couldn't possibly justify paying to localise the site into the dozens of other languages on the current list:
Giles
That is probably true, no company could afford to translate thir webbsite into all lesser-used languages, and in the case of this site one could argue that translators were showing off their wares, so to speak, though I am not sure whether there is any recognition of their individual efforts anywhere (I may be wrong about this).
But there are other ways to go about this. You could, for example, choose to localize a site into the 4-5 languages that are most used, pay for that effort, and then offer to let those who would like to see the interface translated into, say, the Bolognese dialect to do so on their own.
To my mind, this would be a reasonable approach that shows respect for the profession that, after all, sustains the site. One of the constant themes debated in the forums of this site is the lack of respect for the profession and low rates. What does it tell you if the leading translator markeplace site is unwilling to pay for translation services?
But I am not a good businessman...
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