| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10] > | Professional Translators Against Crowdsourcing and Other Unethical Business Practices Thread poster: paula arturo
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Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X) 
Poland
Local time: 11:20
English to Polish
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| little offtopic | Dec 20, 2009 |
Laurent KRAULAND wrote: Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote:
I am sure that people employed in manual printing considered computers unethical as /cut/, just like nineteenth century workers thought the worst of any kind of machinery implemented at their factories. ... with the reservation that today's robots do not buy e.g. the cars and other items they produce. And we have yet to see a decrease in the prices of robot-made cars, shoes and sportswear produced in delocalized factories or crowdsourced software.
As a side note, could you please edit your quote of my post by removing the clearly offensive expression starting after "unethical" and ending before the comma? I was just lectured my a moderator that linguists should know this is offensive. Apparently I'm not one. I have edited my post. Thank you and apologies for my misbehaviour.
[Edited at 2009-12-20 10:19 GMT]
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 11:20
Italian to English
In memoriam | Commodities, consumer goods and services | Dec 20, 2009 |
Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
And we have yet to see a decrease in the prices of robot-made cars, shoes and sportswear produced in delocalized factories or crowdsourced software.
Hi Laurent,
When production costs fall, you might expect the price of a commodity to fall, cartels permitting, but most consumer goods and services sell on perceived value.
When you purchase software and increase your own productivity, do you drop your rates in case you make more money? Or do you take the extra income and invest it in further resources? Plus one or two little indulgences, of course
Giles
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Let accredited professional associations sites, translation software sites (for licensed users) and Proz.com (honoris causa) be the only meeting corners for certified laborers, the latter two being obliged to promote a minimum rate, which alone could allow living and professional standard to be maintained.
| | | | | Stopped using translators? | Dec 20, 2009 |
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:
Microsoft uses MT for its websites (in foreign languages)... for these giants, translation costs are indeed prohibitive and they stopped using translators ages ago...
This is a bit of a detour from our topic, but I don't think this is true. Obviously, IBM and Microsoft do use translators. I don't think there is any segment or area where they have managed to get rid of us.
I certainly haven't seen any Microsoft webpages that were machine translated into Hungarian. All that I have come across so far are obviously human translated. And if Hungarian is not machine traslated, what language would be? Obviously not French or German, and surely not Inuit and Chuckhee - there is no usable MT for languages much smaller than Hungarian...
Indeed, the translation costs are massive for large websites like Microsoft's knowledgebase or for large software applications, but they are not that significant compared to the cost of writing that material (or software) in the first place. These companies obviously try to reduce translation costs: they use CATs and even their own localization environments and they may use MT as a raw input for human editing, but there is no way around paying for professional language services for the part of the job that actually requires expertise.
[Edited at 2009-12-20 10:55 GMT]
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| Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Deleted by poster | Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X)
Poland
Local time: 11:20
English to Polish
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Gennady Lapardin wrote:
Let accredited professional associations sites, translation software sites (for licensed users) and Proz.com (honoris causa) be the only meeting corners for certified laborers, the latter two being obliged to promote a minimum rate, which alone could allow living and professional standard to be maintained.
Careful. Minimum prices could push you out of business. I'm sure you know what happens when there's a minimum price that's higher than the market price: a lot of skilled people are willing to sell, few are willing to buy. If the minimum price is lower than market, it doesn't change a thing.
Next thing you know, by the way, is that the government 'promotes' its own standards by forcing you to get an official government license for a fee + possibly a bribe.
| | | | Francisco de Azevedo (X)
Argentina
Local time: 06:20
French to Spanish
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| Let's please call things by their name | Dec 20, 2009 |
Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote:
The processes that you are referring to are called progress.
Krzysztof: You say progress, I say more capital concentration in the hands of a privileged few. In a world ruled by an economic system in which 0.01% of the population makes millions a year, and the rest is pretty much equally divided between those the system includes and sustains itself from (i.e., professionals, either freelancers or employees in institutions and corporations) and those the system excludes (people living in poverty or indigence), I would not dare calling progress any practice that could most likely tilt the scale in the wrong side and help exclude even more people.
Giovanni Guarnieri wrote:
These people (lingotech) can say what they want - because, at the end of the day, they want to sell their product - but I haven't seen a shred of evidence in support of these claims.
Giovani: you only commented on 1 of the examples I posted. As to how convincing the Lingotech example is, I can only suggest you do your own research and find convincing arguments in favor of either position. I am only trying to raise awareness about a certain practice I consider to be dangerous so everybody can decide for themselves where they stand.
we all know that big corporations do their own translations in-house (see IBM)
Very good point. What do you think is going to happen to all those in-house translators or professionals that are working at IBM after nFluent is implemented (see my post above)?
I think the blog post by the SDL Marketing Director quoted by Williamson shows the impact crowdsourcing is having, and is indicative, to me, of a future drastic shift in SDL's corporate strategy.
[Edited at 2009-12-20 14:52 GMT]
[Edited at 2009-12-20 14:54 GMT]
[Edited at 2009-12-20 14:54 GMT]
[Edited at 2009-12-20 16:50 GMT]
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I certainly haven't seen any Microsoft webpages that were machine translated into Hungarian. All that I have come across so far are obviously human translated. And if Hungarian is not machine traslated, what language would be? Obviously not French or German, and surely not Inuit and Chuckhee - there is no usable MT for languages much smaller than Hungarian...
I know that IBM uses a mixed system (MT + crowdsourcing of internal employees, as stated by lingotech, although I don't know if it has stopped using professional translators altogether) and for Microsoft read this...
http://support.microsoft.com/gp/faqtranslation
Also, article about IBM's nFluent platform...
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10403523-93.html
As you can see, big companies are working towards MT solutions to reduce their translation costs... but crowdsourcing? I doubt it...
[Edited at 2009-12-20 15:52 GMT]
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paula arturo
United States
Local time: 05:20
Spanish to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Why not help those who really need it instead? | Dec 20, 2009 |
@Katalin: I agree with you. I think they list of benefits provided by Proz can totally be compared to monetary compensation.
@Fran: thank you so much for taking the time to look up all that information and providing us with such a valuable foundation for basing our opinions on facts and not just our impressions. There’s nothing like doing research and reading up on certain issues to either further confirm our opinions or question them altogether.
IBM: Like you, I see ... See more @Katalin: I agree with you. I think they list of benefits provided by Proz can totally be compared to monetary compensation.
@Fran: thank you so much for taking the time to look up all that information and providing us with such a valuable foundation for basing our opinions on facts and not just our impressions. There’s nothing like doing research and reading up on certain issues to either further confirm our opinions or question them altogether.
IBM: Like you, I see a huge potential threat in IBM’s nFluent.
Lingotek: Here’s another interesting quote by Lingotek’s former CEO, Tim Hunt, “Lingotek has developed software that doubles the output of any human translator while improving quality and decreasing costs.”
Dr. House: I also agree with you and Valery, it’s not just about payment!
As far as the examples you provided from industries, they clearly show a very disturbing tendency. Crowdsourcing is all about milking people and saving corporations millions so that they can make larger profits when they sell us their products and services. If it were about having a sense of community, pitching in, and helping out, we’d be helping out non profit organizations and charities that are actually trying to make a difference.
Someone early in this thread mentioned hypocrisy. What I find hypocritical is the way some people refuse to do pro bono work for non profit organizations that are actually trying to help people, but then defend pro bono work for corporations that are only looking after themselves. We talk about a sense of “community,” “reaching people,” “helping each other,” well here’s an idea: why not add up all the hours dedicated to making the rich richer with crowdsourcing, and instead jump in and help the poor or help out non profit organizations advocating for human rights, or saving the rain forest? There are so many causes out there that could benefit from human time and dedication, but instead of giving it to them, we give it to companies. Is it just me, or does that seem a little messed up?
@ Laurent: You wrote:
... with the reservation that today's robots do not buy e.g. the cars and other items they produce. And we have yet to see a decrease in the prices of robot-made cars, shoes and sportswear produced in delocalized factories or crowdsourced software.
You really hit the nail on the head. I couldn’t agree more! ▲ Collapse
| | | | David Russi
United States
Local time: 03:20
English to Spanish
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| Exploitation of the masses | Dec 20, 2009 |
paula13 wrote:
Crowdsourcing is all about milking people and saving corporations millions so that they can make larger profits when they sell us their products and services. If it were about having a sense of community, pitching in, and helping out, we’d be helping out non profit organizations and charities that are actually trying to make a difference.
Exploitation of the masses is the correct term for it. The saddest part is that those who participate in it don't see that they are being used, they get some points or some other crumb in return, and feel all warm and fuzzy, without seeing that they are being manipulated into working for free.
I could understand mounting a defense of crowdsourcing if it enhanced the final product, or if it really opened the web up to those who do not have access because of linguistic obstacles, or if it produced some other worthwhile effect, but I see little evidence that this is the case. This is why I am truly amazed by the number of people who feel the need to actually defend this, as if there were something threatening with the notion that others might object to large corporations using people in every way possible to benefit themselves.
Someone early in this thread mentioned hypocrisy. What I find hypocritical is the way some people refuse to do pro bono work for non profit organizations that are actually trying to help people, but then defend pro bono work for corporations that are only looking after themselves. We talk about a sense of “community,” “reaching people,” “helping each other,” well here’s an idea: why not add up all the hours dedicated to making the rich richer with crowdsourcing, and instead jump in and help the poor or help out non profit organizations advocating for human rights, or saving the rain forest? There are so many causes out there that could benefit from human time and dedication, but instead of giving it to them, we give it to companies. Is it just me, or does that seem a little messed up?
Absolutely! I do pro bono work, and I find it a rewarding way to give back to the community around me and causes I believe in. But I make sure it is for causes and organizations that channel their efforts (and the product I provide) to further worthwhile causes, not to enrich CEOs and shareholders.
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Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote:
Minimum prices could push you out of business.
- the price is paid by the customer
- the rate is paid by the agency
- be careful not to mess about these two things
You may also consult the Google search engine for "above market pricing".
With the best greetings for the oncoming holidays !
| | | | Jeff Whittaker
United States
Local time: 05:20
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
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| A way to fight crowdsourcing | Dec 20, 2009 |
I don't know many companies already read lingotek statements:
"Lingotek's Collaborative Translation Platform brings machine translation, translation memories, and terminology management together allowing you to build a social network of people who know your company to facilitate the social production of localized content. This means never again waiting months or even years to launch new products into foreign markets—roll out one product at the same time, everywhere!"
For sure their... See more I don't know many companies already read lingotek statements:
"Lingotek's Collaborative Translation Platform brings machine translation, translation memories, and terminology management together allowing you to build a social network of people who know your company to facilitate the social production of localized content. This means never again waiting months or even years to launch new products into foreign markets—roll out one product at the same time, everywhere!"
For sure their proposal is alluring and no matter how rich companies can be, no one would ever pay for something he can get for free.
The point here is: will they really be able to produce quality translation using this platform? If the answer is "yes, they can" (I absolutely don't know) than we can fight it refusing to use SDL software. Crowdsourcing and translation machine alone won't produce any competiteve translation. It's the human professional contribution involved in TM creation that can change the translation quality.
In a previous thread someone talked about the translator's right to refuse using its copyright on the TM he creates.
If we are sure SDL is working against our interest why should we buy their products? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X)
Poland
Local time: 11:20
English to Polish
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Gennady Lapardin wrote: Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote:
Minimum prices could push you out of business. - the price is paid by the customer - the rate is paid by the agency - be careful not to mess about these two things You may also consult the Google search engine for "above market pricing". With the best greetings for the oncoming holidays !
Oh come on. You sell your work to the agency for a price. Set a minimum rate, it's a minimum price for the translation in the agency-translator market. Either people will cheat (offer lower than the minimum rates — at the market level) or there will be an oversupply. It's ABC of economics (google "economics").
Best of luck as well!
[Edited at 2009-12-20 21:45 GMT]
| | | | paula arturo
United States
Local time: 05:20
Spanish to English
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TOPIC STARTER | Rising above the narrow confines of his individualistic concerns | Dec 20, 2009 |
@ David:
I could understand mounting a defense of crowdsourcing if it enhanced the final product, or if it really opened the web up to those who do not have access because of linguistic obstacles, or if it produced some other worthwhile effect, but I see little evidence that this is the case. <... See more @ David:
I could understand mounting a defense of crowdsourcing if it enhanced the final product, or if it really opened the web up to those who do not have access because of linguistic obstacles, or if it produced some other worthwhile effect, but I see little evidence that this is the case.
Me neither! Let’s face it the people that need most help in the world don’t have access to Facebook, Twitter, or even electricity! They’re so busy trying to figure out how to survive in a hostile environment that they don’t have the time, or resources, to care about the “wonders” of crowdsourcing or the “awesomeness” of companies, whose products and services they could never afford in the first place, offering those products and services to them in their own language. If it’s about helping people, let’s roll up our sleeves and help people, not companies!
This is why I am truly amazed by the number of people who feel the need to actually defend this, as if there were something threatening with the notion that others might object to large corporations using people in every way possible to benefit themselves.
I don’t get it either. In all honesty, I’m surprised at the amount of people willing to defend crowdsourcing, especially those willing to defend it because they think it doesn’t affect them. Much smarter people than me have been concerned about the effects of individualism as a moral stance, so I’d like to quote one of those smarter people, “An individual has not started living until he can rise above the narrow confines of his individualistic concerns to the broader concerns of all humanity.” (Martin Luther King, Jr.)
@ Jeff:
Thanks so much for your link. It was so funny! I had read about people doing that in Turkish too, but hadn’t seen it with my own eyes yet.
@ Elvira:
You make such an excellent point! If they are working against us, why do we have to pay for their licenses? I’m really interested in reading the thread you mentioned. Is there any chance you could post a link to that thread for us?
[Edited at 2009-12-20 22:46 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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