| A témához tartozó oldalak: < [1 2 3 4] > | A BB for outsourcers' rates Téma indítója: XXXphxxx (X)
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XXXphxxx (X) 
Egyesült Királyság
Local time: 22:04
portugál - angol
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TÉMAINDÍTÓ | Cat amongst the pigeons | Apr 28, 2010 |
Okay, I shall preface this with the fact that I may be playing devil's advocate, just inviting further thoughts on the idea that rates are 'dragged down' by translator's offering lower rates elsewhere around the world... Would this actually be a problem if outsourcers and translators actually stuck by the rule of only translating into one's mother tongue (regional variations considered)? So, you're remunerated according to the fair market value for your language combination - too simplistic?
| | | | | Hyundai translators as well... | Apr 28, 2010 |
Over the past 3 years, I've paid anything from 0,02 EUR p/w (yes, no misplaced comma there, feel free to start a rant) to 0,40 p/w. Those differences come from many different factors: competition in the language combination, subject matter, level of specialisation involved, deadline, quality required... and yes, the quality offered by the translator.
If I know that the proofread will be a formality because the translator consistently delivers excellent work, I don't mind a higher r... See more Over the past 3 years, I've paid anything from 0,02 EUR p/w (yes, no misplaced comma there, feel free to start a rant) to 0,40 p/w. Those differences come from many different factors: competition in the language combination, subject matter, level of specialisation involved, deadline, quality required... and yes, the quality offered by the translator.
If I know that the proofread will be a formality because the translator consistently delivers excellent work, I don't mind a higher rate at all. However, if the delivery needs some extra time before I want to sign my name under the delivery mail to the end client, things are different.
For most language combinations that means that I search for someone else, but for the more popular ones I opt to work with an adequate translator every now and then rather than with an excellent one, and indeed pay an adequate rate but not an excellent one.
But many, many translators are proud and feel that they are the very best there is, so they deserve the highest rates. I don't want to tell them that their A+ colleagues get more and get into a time and energy consuming debate on quality where I have to explain that no, I'm not offering them that same rate because their work doesn't merit it. I just want to get the job done and have everybody looking forward to the next opportunity for cooperation.
I will give feedback and openly discuss quality issues, but if I want to keep on working with a translator I will not tell her/him that we feel s/he's not as good as the rest. It's just not conductive for a happy biz relationship. Whereas a biz relationship in which I more or less know that I will get what I need for a specific job and the translator knows what to expect from us can work for years even if the work's merely good and not excellent. After all, not every job needs total excellence, and often good is good enough.
In summary: I think that a rates BB invites the good translators to ask for excellent rates, and that's not something I look forward to. All in all I think that Janet's right, that indeed remuneration is a highly individual thing. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
Franciaország
Local time: 23:04
francia - német
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| A good example... | Apr 28, 2010 |
This is a good example about how a "regulated" market leads to absurdities. If I were to translate 300 words per hour at the minimum French wage of 8.86 EUR/hour, I would be earning 0.0295 EUR gross per word (and don't forget to subtract some 40% taxes and charges = 0.0177 EUR nett per word).
Annamaria Amik wrote:
I think there is another aspect to be considered.
The situation is not only about "outrageously low rates", but also about the context of those outrageously low rates. Unfortunately, what is low in a Western European country (let's say EUR 0.04/sw) is double of what a certain category of translators is paid BY LAW in some other country, like Romania. Sworn translators are paid around RON 25 for a standard page (approx. 1800-2000 characters/page), which means ~ EUR 0.02/word, BY LAW. And you can't turn them down more than twice a year, because they can cancel your license (as stipulated by law!).
[Edited at 2010-04-28 15:03 GMT]
| | | | | Mother tongue and rates | Apr 28, 2010 |
Lisa Simpson wrote:
Okay, I shall preface this with the fact that I may be playing devil's advocate, just inviting further thoughts on the idea that rates are 'dragged down' by translator's offering lower rates elsewhere around the world... Would this actually be a problem if outsourcers and translators actually stuck by the rule of only translating into one's mother tongue (regional variations considered)? So, you're remunerated according to the fair market value for your language combination - too simplistic?
What about people who don't live in the country where their native language is the official language? Or people with two native languages (like myself, HU and RO) where the two language regions have completely different rates?
I don't think it is as simple as that. I don't think the market value is or should be dictated by the language combination per se. There may be rare languages where the rare-language country has a very low standard of living, cost etc. Can you expect such a translator to work for EUR 0.01 because, oops, he is geographically disadvantaged? On the contrary, I think the rates should be defined according to the beneficiary's market prices, or at least somewhere between the two.
@Laurent:
I absolutely agree. I wouldn't mind the regulated prices, if I weren't *forced* to work for the authorities (luckily, so far I managed to avoid such jobs) for those rates, or else I lose my license which allows me to charge normal rates to other market players in the first place.
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Laurent KRAULAND (X)
Franciaország
Local time: 23:04
francia - német
+ ...
| A pure abstraction | Apr 28, 2010 |
Lisa Simpson wrote:
Okay, I shall preface this with the fact that I may be playing devil's advocate, just inviting further thoughts on the idea that rates are 'dragged down' by translator's offering lower rates elsewhere around the world... Would this actually be a problem if outsourcers and translators actually stuck by the rule of only translating into one's mother tongue (regional variations considered)? So, you're remunerated according to the fair market value for your language combination - too simplistic?
Even when I agree upon the principle, the notion of "fair market value" means little because it is too abstract. As an example, would one agree not to be paid more than £65 per 1,000 words because this is the "fair market value" in Great-Britain (hardly ever seen an English agency offering more neither in my pairs, nor in other ones).
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Egyesült Királyság
Local time: 22:04
portugál - angol
+ ...
TÉMAINDÍTÓ | Exchange rates | Apr 28, 2010 |
Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
Even when I agree upon the principle, the notion of "fair market value" means little because it is too abstract. As an example, would one agree not to be paid more than £65 per 1,000 words because this is the "fair market value" in Great-Britain (hardly ever seen an English agency offering more neither in my pairs, nor in other ones).
I think UK translation rates are looking particularly unattractive to us based in the Eurozone since the Euro took a nosedive. They weren't so bad 10 years ago when £1 gave you €1.50. But yes, I agree Laurent, even if you're living in the UK, current rates equate to those for any blue collar work.
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Egyesült Királyság
Local time: 22:04
portugál - angol
+ ...
TÉMAINDÍTÓ | We decide our rates | Apr 28, 2010 |
This all kind of takes us back to my earlier point that we should be setting our rates and not continue with the practice of agencies 'offering' us what they deem fit. We're the ones doing the job after all! If this works for other professions why not for ours?
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
Franciaország
Local time: 23:04
francia - német
+ ...
| Upon reflection... | Apr 28, 2010 |
Lisa Simpson wrote:
This all kind of takes us back to my earlier point that we should be setting our rates and not continue with the practice of agencies 'offering' us what they deem fit. We're the ones doing the job after all! If this works for other professions why not for ours?
and *not* attacking you in any way, Lisa: how high are the occurrences in which the relationship is clearly and unmistakably B2B *in such cases* (doctors, architects...)?
We, should think about that too, shouldn't we?
[Edited at 2010-04-28 19:12 GMT]
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Laurent KRAULAND (X)
Franciaország
Local time: 23:04
francia - német
+ ...
Susan van den Ende wrote:
Over the past 3 years, I've paid anything from 0,02 EUR p/w (yes, no misplaced comma there, feel free to start a rant) to 0,40 p/w. Those differences come from many different factors: competition in the language combination, subject matter, level of specialisation involved, deadline, quality required... and yes, the quality offered by the translator.
(.../...)
In summary: I think that a rates BB invites the good translators to ask for excellent rates, and that's not something I look forward to. All in all I think that Janet's right, that indeed remuneration is a highly individual thing.
No rant here, Susan and no need to start one. Although the competition point would need some clarification AFAIAC...
The only thing that matters is *publishable quality* so far. And I frankly -to link back to one of your previous posts- do not care whether an agency buys it at 0.12 or 0.13 € per word as long as they know they can send it to their end client with minor editing... or none at all.
As per average, it is indeed a very "flexible" word.
[Edited at 2010-04-28 17:41 GMT]
| | | | XXXphxxx (X)
Egyesült Királyság
Local time: 22:04
portugál - angol
+ ...
TÉMAINDÍTÓ | Please elaborate | Apr 29, 2010 |
Susan van den Ende wrote:
Over the past 3 years, I've paid anything from 0,02 EUR p/w (yes, no misplaced comma there, feel free to start a rant) to 0,40 p/w.
@ Susan: can I please ask, out of interest, what kind of job would command a rate of € 0.02/w?
| | | | Nesrin
Egyesült Királyság
Local time: 22:04
angol - arab
+ ...
| Thank you for pointing that out, Annamaria | Apr 29, 2010 |
Annamaria Amik wrote:
Unfortunately, what is low in a Western European country (let's say EUR 0.04/sw) is double of what a certain category of translators is paid BY LAW in some other country, like Romania. Sworn translators are paid around RON 25 for a standard page (approx. 1800-2000 characters/page), which means ~ EUR 0.02/word, BY LAW. And you can't turn them down more than twice a year, because they can cancel your license (as stipulated by law!).
Even though I too am against low rates for translators (as a translator, obviously), I have tried (in the past, till I gave up), to point out on these forums that the word "low" is not the same everywhere.
In Egypt too, until a couple of years ago (I admit I don't know the situation now) translators were paid 40 Egyptian pounds per page (120 EGP per 1000 words) by governmental institutions and NGOs (that's the equivalent of 0.02 USD per word). It's legal, it's perfectly in line with other wages given to other professionals in Egyptian institutions - that's not to say it's a fair rate, or that it was enough for them to make a living. However, it meant that any translator not accustomed to working with international clients was happy to find one paying anything higher than that.
Nowadays the cost of living in Egypt has gone up in the most ridiculous way, and Egypt-based translators are indeed entitled to demand international rates..
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Sure: the job was an excellent translation of a manual.
Translator had converted his target income to EURs for his quote and since the exchange rate had dropped considerably we were lucky. We actually pointed that out to him, and he told us that he was aware of the issue but did not want to change the rate he agreed to.
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| translator acting as agency | Apr 29, 2010 |
Annamaria Amik wrote:
The situation is much worse on the actual market, full of translation agencies offering half the regulated price which is already low (some of them even complain about translators trying to set somewhat normal rates, and it is not rare for such translators to get insulting reply letters!).
That is so true, unfortunately! But what about the following problem these days:
Our agency just lost a job to a freelancer (claiming to be an agency).
We know that behind the facade there's only 1 translator comprising this so called agency, but there's nothing you can do. When you see his website you think you are dealing with an agency and he acts as such, but he is not.
Albeit, we can never compete with the (low) project price he offered the client...
Competition is so fierce these days, I hope that quality will one day prevail again!
| | | | | who sets the rates? | Apr 29, 2010 |
Lisa Simpson wrote:
This all kind of takes us back to my earlier point that we should be setting our rates and not continue with the practice of agencies 'offering' us what they deem fit. We're the ones doing the job after all! If this works for other professions why not for ours?
But in many cases, freelance translators depend on us agencies to get work! You don't want to know how many translators have called us this year to ask if we have (more) work for them. In many language pairs the competition is huge (to take Dutch-English as an example).
We agencies are bombarded with low rates from freelance translators with whom we have to compete towards end clients; but that's like comparing apples with pears. It's just not the same, but unfortunately not every client understands this.
It's true, you are doing the initial job, but at the agency we crosscheck the translation with the source text, correct mistakes, DTP work, terminology work etc. It's not like the translations we receive from "you" are straightaway usable; I wish!
So whose determining the rates? The end clients in the chain are setting the rates.
| | | | | too low rates | Apr 29, 2010 |
Lisa Simpson wrote:
Susan van den Ende wrote:
Over the past 3 years, I've paid anything from 0,02 EUR p/w (yes, no misplaced comma there, feel free to start a rant) to 0,40 p/w.
@ Susan: can I please ask, out of interest, what kind of job would command a rate of € 0.02/w?
At our agency we DON'T work with freelancers who work for less than 0.07; I can't take them seriously and quality is of the utmost importance to us and it are precisely such rates which destroy the market!
So the word rates our freelance translators work with vary between 0.07 and "the sky is the limit" 
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