| Stran v tématu: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14] > | Proposal that people who post questions via the Kudoz system be obliged to provide context Autor vlákna: Helen Shiner
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Cetacea 
Švýcarsko
Local time: 19:19
angličtina -> němčina
+ ...
| Yes, absolutely. | Dec 4, 2010 |
philgoddard wrote:
I feel we should be able to vote down questions in a similar way to the Pro/Non-Pro system. If three people feel there is not enough context, the question should be hidden so that it's not wasting any more people's time.
Does anyone else agree with me?
I think this is a very good idea, but since the Pro/Non-Pro option itself has been under attack lately because certain people took offense at being "reclassified", it probably won't be implemented. Like writeaway just commented, "askers seem to benefit from an impenetrable bubble of protection".
| | | | philgoddard
Spojené státy americké
němčina -> angličtina
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| Jared, what do you think? | Dec 4, 2010 |
If you don't think this is a good idea, how many requests would it take to change your mind? If it's a realistic number, I'll see if I can get them.
This issue is causing a lot of discontent among members - it's one of the things that spoils the whole ProZ experience. We (even the non-paying members who visit and click on advertising) are paying your salary - a good business should respond to demand from its customers.
| | | | | @ philgoddard | Dec 4, 2010 |
philgoddard wrote:
I feel we should be able to vote down questions in a similar way to the Pro/Non-Pro system. If three people feel there is not enough context, the question should be hidden so that it's not wasting any more people's time.
Does anyone else agree with me?
Excellent idea. I'm all for it.
Sarah
| | | | S E (X)
Itálie
Local time: 19:19
italština -> angličtina
| @ Phil, Helen, and Jared | Dec 5, 2010 |
Phil: Please count my vote as well. This is a terrific idea.
Helen: Thank you for opening this discussion and for the persistence and grace with which you have kept in on the table.
Jared: Thank you for the genuine responsiveness of your engagement with this thread and for demonstrating that proz.com does not wish to settle for the lowest common denominator.
If proz.com is a serious site for professional translators, and if kudoz is to remain an integral pa... See more Phil: Please count my vote as well. This is a terrific idea.
Helen: Thank you for opening this discussion and for the persistence and grace with which you have kept in on the table.
Jared: Thank you for the genuine responsiveness of your engagement with this thread and for demonstrating that proz.com does not wish to settle for the lowest common denominator.
If proz.com is a serious site for professional translators, and if kudoz is to remain an integral part of the proz.com formula, then kudoz must aim for the same level of seriousness and professionalism claimed by the site itself.
And if the replies to this and related threads are any indication, anything less than a serious and professional kudoz forum will result (and indeed is already resulting) in an increasingly impoverished terminology resource.
As I have said elsewhere, kudoz is an excellent idea. And it is fully worth the effort to make it (return it to?) an equally excellent reality.
[Edited at 2010-12-05 14:20 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Laurent KRAULAND (X)
Francie
Local time: 19:19
francouzština -> němčina
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Sarah Jane Webb wrote: philgoddard wrote:
I feel we should be able to vote down questions in a similar way to the Pro/Non-Pro system. If three people feel there is not enough context, the question should be hidden so that it's not wasting any more people's time.
Does anyone else agree with me? Excellent idea. I'm all for it. Sarah
+1
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Laurent KRAULAND wrote:
+1
+ 1
| | | | | In addition... | Dec 5, 2010 |
In addition to giving context, Askers should be encouraged to get a few dictionaries and also to check the Internet to find answers. Some regular and frequent Askers should be switched off -- they appear to be very lazy.
Yours sincerely,
Frequent answerer
| | | | Helen Shiner
Velká Británie
Local time: 18:19
němčina -> angličtina
+ ...
AUTOR TÉMATU
I am a little late in replying to your amendments having been away this weekend.
On a positive note I think that askers now have no excuse for not comprehending what context is (though goodness only knows how they manage to call themselves translators without this knowledge). I am grateful that you have been so thorough in your description, Jared. This now deals with the ill-educated and answerers have something to which they can point askers without yet again having to explain what... See more I am a little late in replying to your amendments having been away this weekend.
On a positive note I think that askers now have no excuse for not comprehending what context is (though goodness only knows how they manage to call themselves translators without this knowledge). I am grateful that you have been so thorough in your description, Jared. This now deals with the ill-educated and answerers have something to which they can point askers without yet again having to explain what context is. Your wording ("consider" rather than, for instance, "please provide") is a little weak in my view, but that may be because there is still no compunction to provide context.
We are then left with those (by far the majority) who are just too lazy to provide context. Yes, they show themselves up as unprofessional and yes, we can learn not to respond to their questions (eventually after battering our heads against brick walls for some time), but such questions increasingly absolutely litter Kudoz (I can only speak for French-English and German-English).
I would, therefore, be in support of a system, much as philgoddard has suggested, which automatically generated an e-mail to the asker when 2 or 3 peers had asked for more context. This could be generated after an elapse of, say, 24 hours in which the asker had still not taken the opportunity to provide context. The asker could then be told that their question had been suspended until context was provided. It could then be opened at any time once that context had been given. Or this e-mail could be sent immediately after a 2nd or 3rd peer had asked for context and the asker given 24 hours to do something about it before the question was suspended. Many such askers post their questions (without context) and disappear off leaving the community of answerers in the lurch, returning only to see what discussion has been generated. Often they then select from one of the guesses provided by points-hungry individuals or leave the selection to their peers.
Really, it is time for this devaluation and degrading of the Kudoz system and the glossary to be addressed. I do hope you will take this one step further, Jared.
Thanks to everyone for their support and to Phil and Sarah for your kind comments.
[Edited at 2010-12-06 10:06 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-12-06 10:08 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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| Again, the person with the need sets the parameters | Dec 6, 2010 |
Hello all,
Jared wrote: "The person with the need sets the parameters" is point six of ProZ.com's guiding principles, http://www.proz.com/about/cornerstones/ . ProZ.com the site is built around these principles, and ProZ.com staff use them when making decisions like this.
The purpose of the KudoZ term help system is to provide term help.
If you see questions by askers which you do not want to bother with, for any reason, you can filter these out of your notifications, at http://www.proz.com/dashboard/kudoz/?sp_kudoz_mode=flagsandfilters
If you select the "Detailed" option for display in the questions list, http://www.proz.com/kudoz/ the contents of the context/explanation field are shown from the list itself, without need to visit the actual question to see if context has been provided (and thereby not bother with questions where no context has been entered if you choose).
Hiding those questions from all would-be answerers would not be much in line with the guiding principle I quote, or with the purpose of KudoZ. Ways of addressing the issue of context in term help need to keep both of these factors in mind.
A mechanism to request context sounds interesting, but the "Discussion" feature is designed to be used, in part, for this purpose, and the asker receives notification of each post in that area, so I don't think a separate option is necessary.
I'm sure there are askers out there who would benefit from further education/orientation on the subject of context, however. Another option that occurs to me might be a short guide or article highlighting the importance of reading the context of a term in order to arrive at the correct translation of that term (in general, and maybe specific examples applied to KudoZ). I realize that is not a solution of the type being sought here, but it would provide those who are interested with further information to apply when seeking term help. If anyone is interested in helping to put together that information, just let me know.
Jared
| | | | Laurent KRAULAND (X)
Francie
Local time: 19:19
francouzština -> němčina
+ ...
| Just a suggestion | Dec 6, 2010 |
Jared wrote: Hello all, Jared wrote: "The person with the need sets the parameters" is point six of ProZ.com's guiding principles, http://www.proz.com/about/cornerstones/ . ProZ.com the site is built around these principles, and ProZ.com staff use them when making decisions like this. The purpose of the KudoZ term help system is to provide term help. If you see questions by askers which you do not want to bother with, for any reason, you can filter these out of your notifications, at http://www.proz.com/dashboard/kudoz/?sp_kudoz_mode=flagsandfilters
Hi Jared,
I may be a bit off-topic here but there would be a need to filter out some answerers too. Just a suggestion.
| | | | Helen Shiner
Velká Británie
Local time: 18:19
němčina -> angličtina
+ ...
AUTOR TÉMATU
Jared wrote: Hello all, Jared wrote: "The person with the need sets the parameters" is point six of ProZ.com's guiding principles, http://www.proz.com/about/cornerstones/ . ProZ.com the site is built around these principles, and ProZ.com staff use them when making decisions like this. The purpose of the KudoZ term help system is to provide term help. If you see questions by askers which you do not want to bother with, for any reason, you can filter these out of your notifications, at http://www.proz.com/dashboard/kudoz/?sp_kudoz_mode=flagsandfilters If you select the "Detailed" option for display in the questions list, http://www.proz.com/kudoz/ the contents of the context/explanation field are shown from the list itself, without need to visit the actual question to see if context has been provided (and thereby not bother with questions where no context has been entered if you choose). Hiding those questions from all would-be answerers would not be much in line with the guiding principle I quote, or with the purpose of KudoZ. Ways of addressing the issue of context in term help need to keep both of these factors in mind. A mechanism to request context sounds interesting, but the "Discussion" feature is designed to be used, in part, for this purpose, and the asker receives notification of each post in that area, so I don't think a separate option is necessary. I'm sure there are askers out there who would benefit from further education/orientation on the subject of context, however. Another option that occurs to me might be a short guide or article highlighting the importance of reading the context of a term in order to arrive at the correct translation of that term (in general, and maybe specific examples applied to KudoZ). I realize that is not a solution of the type being sought here, but it would provide those who are interested with further information to apply when seeking term help. If anyone is interested in helping to put together that information, just let me know. Jared
I'm sorry, Jared, but this still misses the key point about context. Context for a professional translator is not an option; it is germane to the process of translation. Kudoz askers should not, therefore, have the option NOT to provide context. Without it, any question is aberrant, useless and help cannot be provided. Its provision is AS ESSENTIAL as providing the term queried.
The detailed view you mention does help a little, but it does not show the discussion box in which an asker may have entered context belatedly, even immediately after posting ("Whoops, I should have mentioned....").
Having recently posted, "Why must we always ask for context?" in a discussion box out of sheer exasperation, after having had to ask for it countless times in one day, my posting was removed, NOT as irrelevant to the question (which I could have understood), BUT as "offensive and/or personal". When I queried this with the moderator in question, since my comment was neither offensive nor personal, I was told that the asker felt "challenged" by it. For goodness sake, please, Proz.com, stop molly-coddling unprofessional askers and join with our legitimate wish to raise standands and remove so much frustration from the process. After all, we, as translators, ONLY WANT TO HELP. We are the ones, after all, who make Kudoz a worthwhile place to seek assistance.
[Edited at 2010-12-06 11:28 GMT]
| | | | S E (X)
Itálie
Local time: 19:19
italština -> angličtina
| help those who help themselves.... | Dec 6, 2010 |
1. Sure, we can filter out all of the unprofessional askers in our pair(s). But given the proz.com point system, this is an effective way of shooting oneself in the foot: the fewer questions one answers, the lower one's status is. We can either raise our status by helping unprofessional translators (if we don't, someone else will) or lower it by opting to not help same.
In effect, the current system rewards those who support unprofessional behavior, and penalizes those who don't.... See more 1. Sure, we can filter out all of the unprofessional askers in our pair(s). But given the proz.com point system, this is an effective way of shooting oneself in the foot: the fewer questions one answers, the lower one's status is. We can either raise our status by helping unprofessional translators (if we don't, someone else will) or lower it by opting to not help same.
In effect, the current system rewards those who support unprofessional behavior, and penalizes those who don't.
proz.com presents kudoz as one of its greatest, most valuable assets. Askers increase their visibility and status on the site through provision of good answers. It is contradictory that proz.com wants high quality answers (to confirm and justify the status and prestige of kudoz site-wide) and yet does not expect a similar level of quality for questions.
2. Regarding point six of proz.com's guiding principles, that "the person with the need sets the parameters". When an asker posts a question as "pro" and the community votes it down as "non-pro", this is hardly a case of "the person with the need setting the parameters".
What it is, rather, is a community of professionals demonstrating that they care about the integrity of proz.com, their profession, and their work.
I believe that this is precisely what is being sought in this call for change regarding the issue of context. ▲ Collapse
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hazmatgerman (X)
Local time: 19:19
angličtina -> němčina
admit I would not support new rules, and for a single reason: as long as the overriding rule is to "help those in need" asking for context will evidently put those in need beyond their capabilities, because were it otherwise they would provide context all along. No wonder some feel offended by even the most polite reminder. Any new / tightened rule would only silence those askers who presently do not provide necessary context. The only realistic solution is not to answer at all. Getting no help ... See more admit I would not support new rules, and for a single reason: as long as the overriding rule is to "help those in need" asking for context will evidently put those in need beyond their capabilities, because were it otherwise they would provide context all along. No wonder some feel offended by even the most polite reminder. Any new / tightened rule would only silence those askers who presently do not provide necessary context. The only realistic solution is not to answer at all. Getting no help instead of getting bad help is better in the long run, both for the individual and the site. The individual may learn, eventually, and the site will regain it's appeal to those who have decided to remain mostly silent by now.
Regards.
[Edited at 2010-12-06 13:45 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | philgoddard
Spojené státy americké
němčina -> angličtina
+ ...
So what you're telling us is that you're not prepared to change the system, and we can like it or lump it.
I also asked how many requests it would take for you to change your mind, but you didn't reply.
If this is how responsive you are to the needs of your customers, it makes me disinclined to renew my membership.
| | | | | Yes, raise the standards! | Dec 6, 2010 |
Helen Shiner wrote:
[ For goodness sake, please, Proz.com, stop molly-coddling unprofessional askers and join with our legitimate wish to raise standands and remove so much frustration from the process. After all, we, as translators, ONLY WANT TO HELP. We are the ones, after all, who make Kudoz a worthwhile place to seek assistance.
[Edited at 2010-12-06 11:28 GMT]
Thanks for expressing this so well, Helen. This molly-coddling is one of the reasons I am not in a big hurry to become paid member.
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