Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

lettres de forme

English translation:

textura script / textura type

Added to glossary by B D Finch
Aug 5, 2017 16:57
6 yrs ago
French term

lettres de forme

French to English Art/Literary Art, Arts & Crafts, Painting illuminated manuscripts
"Ces deux manuscrits ont beaucoup de traits communs : même nombre de cahiers, mêmes justification, réglure et mise en page, même écriture en lettres de forme ou libraria gothica formata par la main d’un même copiste"

I have translated "libraria gothica formata" as "Gothic book hand script", for which I have a couple of good sources. I am not sure whether to translate "lettres de forme" simply as "Gothic script".

"lettres de forme, caractères gothiques des manuscrits du XIVe siècle"
http://www.notrefamille.com/dictionnaire/definition/lettre/#...
Change log

Aug 7, 2017 18:56: B D Finch changed "Edited KOG entry" from "<a href="/profile/570330">B D Finch's</a> old entry - "lettres de forme"" to ""textura script""

Aug 17, 2017 18:48: Helen Shiner changed "Field" from "Other" to "Art/Literary"

Discussion

Helen Shiner Aug 7, 2017:
@Christopher I've posted according to my experience, and provided refs. Sorry, can't do more with current time constraints.
Christopher Crockett Aug 7, 2017:
@ Helen I hesitate to mention, yet again, that palaeography is NOT my area of expertise.

That being said, it should be clear that all letters on a page --be they hand written or printed from piece of lead-- have, by their very nature, a "form"; and the "form" of each individual manuscript (literally, hand written) letter is made up of multiple strokes of a pen.

The palaeographer's primary tool is the *minute* examination of each and every stroke of the pen which, collectively, determines the "form" of each individual letter.

I don't know what other word one would use to describe the "form" of a hand written letter, and see no reason why that term should only be applied to typography.

Are you saying that, in your extensive experience, the French phrase "lettres de form" is commonly translated by (or understood to mean) "textura"?

When "textura" is (according to Wiki, etc.) in common French usage?

Just asking.
Helen Shiner Aug 7, 2017:
@Christopher I've done a lot of translation in this field for specialist researchers, and the term I proposed is widely used by them. Letter forms, on the other hand, to me has to do with type and typesetting. I'll leave it to Barbara to choose.
Christopher Crockett Aug 7, 2017:
@ Helen Yes, I see now that "textura" (not the redundant "textura script") is a term used for what, in English, is known as "black letter" --it seems to be a generic term used for virtually any "Gothic" script in use during the High and Late middle ages

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textura

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textura

It *may* well be that this loose, general and generic term is what B D's author meant by "lettres de forme" --in which case, I suppose that "textura" could be used as a translation.

Perversely, I still prefer my own solution (letter forms, followed by a more precise explanation) --in part because "textura" is so generic and so little used.
Christopher Crockett Aug 7, 2017:
@ P D Sorry, I didn't see that you had indicated the approximate date and type of mss. we were dealing with.

As a general notion, any sort of ms. can be "illuminated" --though illustrations are very rarely found in charters (documents) or cartularies (collections/copies of charters); those are much more utilitarian instruments.

"Legal texts" --in the sense of texts containing or *on* the law-- are books/codices (as opposed to charters/documents, which are usually written on a single sheet of parchment), written in a "book hand" and very rarely contain any sort of "illumination" other than, perhaps, an "author portrait" at the beginning of the work.

As I read him, what your author is trying to do is make a case for asserting that these two mss. are very likely the work of the same scribe or, at the very least, from the same "scriptorium" --he's not only noting that the palaeography (handwriting) is the same, but also that the basic layout of the books are the same (number of folios, format of the text block on the folio/page, etc.).

Ms. work is, above all, very *meticulous* --at the level of palaeography it can come down to how the individual strokes of individual letters were made.
B D Finch (asker) Aug 7, 2017:
@Christopher As noted to Helen, these are manuscripts written before 1420; in fact, mainly before 1410. They are illuminated manuscripts, not legal texts.
Christopher Crockett Aug 7, 2017:
FWIW Manuscripts/palaeography is definitely not my field (and believe me, it is a very, very specialized area of expertise), but I know that there is a distinction made between a "book hand" (i.e., the script which is used to copy books) and a "chancery hand" (that used to execute documents, letters, etc.).

The distinction between the two becomes clear in the course of the later Middle Ages --and I suspect that the ms. which you are dealing with is rather "late" (XIV c. or later?).
philgoddard Aug 5, 2017:
I think you've answered your own question: book hand. Formata is Latin, de forme is the French equivalent.

Proposed translations

+3
17 mins
Selected

textura type

You'll need to scroll down a bit: http://ndl.go.jp/incunabula/e/chapter2/index.html

http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780198606...



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Note added at 20 mins (2017-08-05 17:18:44 GMT)
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Here's the French and English terminology together again: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eLSoDQAAQBAJ&pg=PT178&lp...

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=CdbH9hQSiHAC&pg=PA33&lpg...



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Note added at 42 mins (2017-08-05 17:39:53 GMT)
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If these manuscripts are earlier than print, then 'textura script' seems the way to go - see my 2nd ref.

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Note added at 23 hrs (2017-08-06 16:51:06 GMT)
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Ok, though print was developed in c. 1450 by Gutenberg. Anyway, I hope ' textura script' answers your problem.

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Note added at 1 day17 hrs (2017-08-07 10:22:39 GMT)
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If that's the case, then there is no issue.
Note from asker:
Thanks Helen! It's early 15th century.
Thanks, "textura script" seems right. Thanks also for the resource on incunabula. This is about various manuscripts produced before 1420
Peer comment(s):

agree philgoddard : Also known as book hand. Not "type", though.//They're manuscripts by a copyist.
1 min
Thanks, Phil, but the sources say otherwise./Textura script if earlier than print. But not clear from info given.
agree Yvonne Gallagher
32 mins
Thanks, Gallagy
neutral Christopher Crockett : I definitely would not use the work "type"; early printing type (fonts) were based on contemporary book hands (scripts), not the other way around.
1 day 20 hrs
Unfortunately, we were not given proper context until pretty late on, but as you see I have suggested textura script, and one of my sources confirms this.
agree Charles Davis : Very late to this party, but textura is right. It's a Gothic script, but not the only kind, so that's no specific enough. (But definitely "script", not "type".)
2 days 5 hrs
Thanks, Charles.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks again Helen."
1 day 21 hrs

letter forms (or "lettres de forme")

"These two manuscripts share many common traits: same number of folios, same justification of the lines of text, regularity and page format, same letter forms --a later Gothic book hand which is the work of the same scribe."

As Phil has noted, "libraria gothica formata" is simply the Latin expression for a any genre of "Gothic" book hand (and, I assume, would be applicable to most mss. from the early 13th c. on).

Your "Gothic book hand script" is o.k., but redundant (a "book hand" being a "script"); and the source you found at

http://dictionnaire.sensagent.leparisien.fr/LETTRES/fr-fr/

suggests that this "lettres de forme" is simply the formal name (in French at least) for "caractères gothiques des manuscrits du XIVe siècle," which is what we've got here.

As I said, this is definitely not my field --and a damned complicated one it is.

It *may* be that "lettres de forme" is the technical name within the field for this specific form of "Gothic book hand" --in which case you should leave it, putting it in quotes, with the explanation following immediately.

But I've never seen it before (as opposed to, say, "bastarda" which is also a technical term for a specific form of late medieval script), so, lacking any English source which translates it with an English equivalent, I'd say translate it as "letter forms" with the specific clarification immediately following.

Here's something on that "bastarda" script (Fr. "lettre bâtarde"), a term which is in common usage among palaeographers of any language:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarda

But there is no wikipedia entry (even in the French wiki) for "lettres de form" --and my best guess is that that phrase is *not* a specific form of script in common usage (among palaeographers) like bastarda is.

I could be wrong.

Caveat emptor.

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Note added at 2 days28 mins (2017-08-07 17:25:54 GMT) Post-grading
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@ B D

Yes, quires is better --though folio has the same sense, it is more often used in describing printed books; and réglure is certainly ruling (the spacing, layout and technique used for the "blind ruled" lines which the letters are written on).

I still like "page format" for the general layout of the page, never having seen "mise-en-page" in an English text before.

Of Helen's references, only one seems to applicable to mss. rather than printed books

http://tinyurl.com/yc4gjurj

and that one (which involves incunables, not mss.) seems to me to be somewhat somewhat ambiguous --though it does make a distinction between "textura" and "rotunda."

It definitely ain't my field.

Who's translating a text concerning mid-12th c. northern French sculpture?
Note from asker:
I believe that Helen's answer is correct, though I shall eventually get feedback from my client (a specialist publisher). However, as you have taken the trouble to translate the rest of the text that I posted, I should just make the correction that the proper translation of "cahiers" is "quires", not "folios" and of "réglure" is "ruling", not "regularity". Also, "mise en page" is not the page format, but the page layout and the term correctly used in English, in this context, is "mise-en-page".
In this case, there are several folios in a quire. "Page format" relates more to the dimensions of the page itself, while "page layout" is about what is set out on that page. "Mise-en-page" is the term used by the British Library.
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