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Glossary entry

Dutch term or phrase:

afstand tot de arbeidsmarkt

English translation:

people with poor job prospects

Added to glossary by MoiraB
Sep 16, 2013 14:24
10 yrs ago
24 viewers *
Dutch term

afstand tot de arbeidsmarkt

Dutch to English Bus/Financial Human Resources
Hi there

I am translating a text regarding the shortage of skilled professionals in the construction industry. I came across the above term in the following context:

'Is het inzetten van mensen met een afstand tot de arbeidsmarkt een oplossing voor de naderende personeelstekorten?'

I am unsure how this would be translated in English and would appreciate any suggestions. Thank you!
Proposed translations (English)
4 +4 people with poor job prospects
4 +5 (people at a great) distance from the labour market
5 +1 (those who) have lost contact with the labour market
4 not ready to join the workforce
3 +1 do not meet the minimum requirements for the job
3 N.E.E.T.S.
Change log

Sep 23, 2013 07:15: MoiraB Created KOG entry

Discussion

freekfluweel Sep 18, 2013:
little chance for a job https://www.google.nl/search?q=little chance for a job&oq=li...
Michael Beijer Sep 17, 2013:
Good luck! That’s why I use: http://anti-social.cc/ ('Anti-Social blocks the sites that make you unproductive.')
Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 17, 2013:
Sorry, I need to focus on my translation.
I hope I will still be able to deliver in time.
Please pray for me, if it helps. :-)
Michael Beijer Sep 17, 2013:
@Barend #2: You said: Comment: They are looking for skilled workers. Certainly these categories cannot be considered skilled workers.
(1) You derive this from the tiny fragment of context we have been given by the Asker. Also, how are we to know how important this aspect is to the actual phrase we are being asked to translate? All the Asker did was tell us, off the top of her head, what her text as a whole is about. I don’t think it's safe to infer too much about how to use this phrase without more context.
(2) 'Certainly these categories cannot be considered skilled workers.' ... Can't they? Can't a person who suffers from a light mental disability of some form be a fully qualified plumber? Can't a person who has had the misfortune of having been out of work for a long time also be a fully qualified plumber?

And you wrote: 'possibly including the underprivileged.' Exactly my point. By saying this, you admit the possibility that your answer doesn't cover the full meaning of the expression. And this group ('the underprivileged') is only one of the various groups that constitute this larger group of people. Remember that there are also all the other groups (that I mentioned).
Michael Beijer Sep 17, 2013:
@Barend: Ja, sorry, dat probeerde ik ook, maar je weet hoe ik ben ;)

You wrote: Question: Is specific reference being made to these categories?
No. However, try Googling the Dutch expression "afstand tot de arbeidsmarkt" (https://www.google.nl/#q="afstand tot de arbeidsmarkt" ) and see what you get. You might notice that the meaning of this expression, in Dutch, seems to be rather similar to the meaning, in English, of 'at distance from the labour market' that is used by the UK and Scottish government organisations I have quoted elsewhere on this page.
Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 17, 2013:
Ik moet het kort houden. Ik dacht je je mond verder zou houden. :-)

Question: Is specific reference being made to these categories?

Comment: They are looking for skilled workers. Certainly these categories cannot be considered skilled workers.
Further this seems to me to be something of an overstatement -

"might very well meet the requirements for working in the construction industry"

Further, the problem is here not that they don't want to employ certain categories of people, on the contrary, that they intend to employ people who are not skilled workers, possibly including underpriviliged.
Michael Beijer Sep 17, 2013:
@Barend: You said:

❝Certainly also these categories of people, should they be included, don't meet the requirements for working in the construction industry. 'don't meet the requirements' can be used for any unsuitable category:= here not being skilled professionals.❞

I don’t agree. The following people:

✪ Mensen met een (licht) verstandelijke beperking
✪ Psychisch kwetsbare mensen
✪ Mensen met een lichamelijke handicap
✪ Mensen met onvoldoende opleiding of een leerachterstand
✪ Landurig werkzoekenden

...might very well 'meet the requirements for working in the construction industry.' It's just that they have other problems that might place them 'at a distance from the labour market'.

More specifically,

– people who suffer from a '(licht) verstandelijke beperking' might very well be perfectly qualified, and thus meet the requirements.
– 'Psychisch kwetsbare mensen': ditto
– 'Mensen met een lichamelijke handicap': ditto
– 'Mensen met onvoldoende opleiding of een leerachterstand': indeed, these people might not meet the requirements.
– 'Landurig werkzoekenden': could of course also meet all of the requirements. It's just that they have been out of work for a long time
Michael Beijer Sep 17, 2013:
@Barend: OK, I'll shut up now. I should actually be translating;)

I think the Asker should now have enough information to decide which way to translate it, depending on her text.
Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 17, 2013:
I am not claiming the term 'met een afstand tot de arbeidsmarkt' cannot be used for these categories of people, the question is whether it used here and in this context for these categories.

If it is used for these categories, here and in this context, which I am doubtful about, then, it seems, 'at a distance from the labour market', could be used.
Michael Beijer Sep 17, 2013:
wat zijn mensen met een afstand tot arbeidsmarkt? Mensen met een afstand tot arbeidsmarkt:

✪ Mensen met een (licht) verstandelijke beperking
✪ Psychisch kwetsbare mensen
✪ Mensen met een lichamelijke handicap
✪ Mensen met onvoldoende opleiding of een leerachterstand
✪ Landurig werkzoekenden

(http://www.enspiratie.nl/mensen-met-een-afstand-tot-de-arbei... )
Michael Beijer Sep 17, 2013:
@Barend: Indeed I am.
Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 17, 2013:
@Michael, ik moet het kort houden What you are doing, saying and presuming is that "met een afstand tot de arbeidsmarkt' is used here and in this context and in Dutch the same as 'at a distance from the labour market' in government circles in Britain.

Well, I interpret it differently.
Michael Beijer Sep 17, 2013:
@Barend: ❝@Michael, I had a glance at the references found at site:uk. It would seem this expression 'at a distance from the labour market' is predominantly used as a kind of 'euphemism' in goverment circles with respect to the underprivileged.❞

Exactly. Please note that the author of the Asker's text chose to use this specific expression: 'mensen met een afstand tot de arbeidsmarkt'. He or she did not use something like 'mensen die niet voldoen aan de minimum eisen', or some such. You have to ask yourself: why was this particular expression chosen? We might not like the English expression 'people at a (great) distance from the labour market'. However, it is used in certain circles, and would seem to be the closest thing we have in English to the way the author chose to express him or herself in this text.

We were told (by the Asker) that the text is about 'the shortage of skilled professionals in the construction industry'. True. However, we were not told who the author is, who the target audience is, and a number of other things that might very well show that such a euphemistic, government speak expression is what is needed in the translation as well.
Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 17, 2013:
Jongens ik heb het tamelijk druk op dit ogenblik dus ik houd het kort.

@ Natasha, we hebben het hier over een tekort aan geschikte mensen (shortage of skilled professionals) in de bouw. En nu willen ze mensen gaan aannemen die niet over de opleiding/diploma's/vaardigheden/ervaring/mentaliteit/etc. beschikken die een bouwvakker nodig heeft.
Dat is hoe ik 'afstand tot de arbeidsmarkt' hier opvat.

@Michael, I had a glance at the references found at site:uk. It would seem this expression 'at a distance from the labour market' is predominantly used in government circles as a kind of 'euphemism' with respect to the underprivileged.
Michael Beijer Sep 17, 2013:
@Barend: I suppose it would depend on the desired tone of the translation. Please note that although the expression 'at a (great) distance from the labour market' might not exactly be widely used in everyday language, it is used quite a bit in certain specific circles. That is, by UK and Scottish government organisations. Therefore, if you want your text to sound like some fancy-pants civil servant wrote it, this would be a very accurate and elegant solution. If you don't, it wouldn't.
Natasha Ziada (X) Sep 17, 2013:
@Barend Als je het hebt over de minimumeisen van een baan, leg je de nadruk op de capaciteiten die nodig zijn voor bepaalde werkzaamheden. Mensen met een afstand tot de arbeidsmarkt zijn mensen die wellicht ruimschoots aan die eisen voldoen, maar om wellicht heel andere redenen niet in staat zijn werk te vinden.

Daarnaast: Als die mensen aan het werk geholpen worden, is er - naast het oplossen van het arbeidstekort in de sector - ook een slag geslagen met het maatschappelijk probleem van langdurig werklozen. Die dimensie ontbreekt als je je op de minimumeisen focust.
Barend van Zadelhoff Sep 16, 2013:
@Michael Thank you for your reply.
This is what I find when I check on site:uk

29 hits in all:

http://tinyurl.com/q7n4mgm

I am primarily responding to the claim that it is widely used.
This seems not to be the case, at least not in the UK.

This means, the argument that this suggestion should be used because it occurs this frequently is no longer valid.
Also, the fact that an option presumably occured this frequently does not imply that there are no other useful and may be even more preferable options.

Especially if these more specifically or accurately or elegantly convey the meaning of the content in the source.
Michael Beijer Sep 16, 2013:
@Barend: reliable sources for usage of the expression 'at a distance from the labour market':

publications.parliament.uk
probation-lancashire.org.uk
scotland.gov.uk
rightsnet.org.uk
healthatwork.org.uk
dwp.gov.uk
niacro.co.uk
suffolkchamber.co.uk
rhyljournal.co.uk
readingroom.skillsfundingagency.bis.gov.uk
skillsfundingagency.bis.gov.uk
york.ac.uk
kirkleesclik.org.uk
niace.org.uk
esi.essexcc.gov.uk
northampton.gov.uk
committees.northumberland.gov.uk
opfs.org.uk
Dr Lofthouse Sep 16, 2013:
NEETS ' does seem to apply mainly to young people.
The category of workers is defined here:

They are a group who are characterised as:

People with a (slightly) intellectual disability
Psychologically vulnerable people
People with physical disabilities
People with insufficient training or learning
Prolonged jobseekers

http://www.enspiratie.nl/mensen-met-een-afstand-tot-de-arbei...

..'remote' does suggest itself, but it is not a phrase in widespread use in the UK (media, newspapers etc...)
Michael Beijer Sep 16, 2013:
another ref. '2.4.4. Reintegration to work of people at a great distance from the labour market'

(National Strategy Report on Social Protection and Inclusion in the Netherlands 2006-2008 - in the context of the Lisbon Strategy -> http://ec.europa.eu/employment_social/social_inclusion/docs/... )
Michael Beijer Sep 16, 2013:
Not sure what it means, but JurLex translates this as:

mensen met een grote afstand tot de arbeidsmarkt = people at a great distance from the labour market

see:

'As a result of the successful welfare-to-workfare transition in the Netherlands, only people “at a great distance from the labour market” are still entitled to social benefits - and these tend disproportionately to be immigrants, most of whom
are low-skilled or otherwise impaired when competing in the labor market.'

(http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ubm7vS5S2dgC&pg=RA1-PA188... )

Proposed translations

+4
43 mins
Selected

people with poor job prospects

if it's plain English you're looking for! In other words, people who don't have the right education, training, skills, etc. to be readily employable.

Usually, "afstand tot de arbeidsmarkt" refers generally to someone's (relative) job/employment prospects and "grote afstand tot de arbeidsmarkt" = poor/very poor job/employment prospects, but it's clear the latter is meant here.

Used to be phase 4 in the employment service's "kansmeter" (jobseeker classification instrument), which classified people according to their job prospects. From my own glossary: "Phase 4 is reserved for people who have very poor job prospects and require ‘social activation’ before they are eligible for a programme aimed at getting them into employment."
Peer comment(s):
neutral Dr Lofthouse : I think they are specifically people who have never worked before ....
5 mins
that may be so, but "poor job prospects" doesn't rule that out. It's how NL Ministry of Foreign Affairs translates the term in any case...
agree Michael Beijer : Although my suggestion seems to be quite widely used, yours sounds a lot better. Maybe also 'people with limited employment opportunities'?
37 mins
Thanks. Yes, sounds good though might depend how asker translates "inzetten" (employ/employment repetition)
agree Natasha Ziada (X)
7 hrs
thanks, Natasha
agree Marjolein Snippe
15 hrs
thanks, Marjolein
agree Leo Salazar (X)
973 days
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Thanks very much to all who contributed! This answer seems to fit best in the piece I am translating."
17 mins

not ready to join the workforce

Ons land telt duizenden werklozen waar de samenleving zich niet goed raad mee weet. Jongeren met een afgebroken schoolopleiding, langdurig werklozen zonder diploma’s of werkervaring, WAO-ers die weer zijn goedgekeurd nadat ze langdurig thuis hebben gezeten.

Doordat er geen goede aansluiting te maken valt naar een baan of een opleiding, blijven deze mensen aan de kant staan – zelfs in een periode waarin het bedrijfsleven schreeuwt om personeel. De stichting Herstelling doet daar iets aan.
http://www.herstelling.nl/over-herstellingalgemeen/jongeren-...

http://brooksjobs.wordpress.com/2011/02/17/nations-youth-not...
Something went wrong...
14 mins

N.E.E.T.S.

Acronym: 'Not In Education, Employment or Training' ie people who have never had a job.
e.g. "Jongeren met afstand tot de arbeidsmarkt
Ons land telt duizenden werklozen waar de samenleving zich niet goed raad mee weet. Jongeren met een afgebroken schoolopleiding, langdurig werklozen zonder diploma’s of werkervaring, WAO-ers die weer zijn goedgekeurd nadat ze langdurig thuis hebben gezeten." http://www.herstelling.nl/over-herstellingalgemeen/jongeren-...

and

http://www.herstelling.nl/over-herstellingalgemeen/jongeren-...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 17 mins (2013-09-16 14:42:08 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

They are a group who are characterised as:

People with a (slightly) intellectual disability
Psychologically vulnerable people
People with physical disabilities
People with insufficient training or learning
Prolonged jobseekers

http://www.enspiratie.nl/mensen-met-een-afstand-tot-de-arbei...

Peer comment(s):
neutral Lianne van de Ven : Had ik nog niet van gehoord, maar als het alleen op jongeren betrekking heeft is het niet geschikt, want de NL zinsnede geldt voor de hele beroepsbevolking..
8 mins
agree its mainly associated with 'young' people
neutral Michael Beijer : agree with Lianne
18 mins
agree its mainly associated with 'young' people
Something went wrong...
+5
22 mins
Dutch term (edited): (mensen met een grote) afstand tot de arbeidsmarkt

(people at a great) distance from the labour market

See discussion entries.

'By way of contrast, recent pilot projects funded by Scottish Enterprise through the New Futures Fund have been targeted at people with multiple disadvantages who are at a distance from the labour market, including disabled people who are incapacity benefit claimants.' (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/01/20511/49769 )

'Deliver a client centred services that assists people who are at a distance from the labour market, including people with health and capability issues, to be prepare for employment and to move into the world of work' (http://www.highland.gov.uk/businessinformation/economicdevel... )

see also: https://www.google.co.uk/search?safe=off&rlz=1C1PRFB_enGB534...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 mins (2013-09-16 14:47:07 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

✪ mensen met een grote afstand tot de arbeidsmarkt = people at a great distance from the labour market (Juridisch-Economisch Lexicon)

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 25 mins (2013-09-16 14:49:52 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

'Over recent years there has been a growing recognition that the supported employment model can provide help for people with disabilities who are at a distance from the labour market.' (http://www.susescotland.co.uk/about/what-is-supported-employ... )
Example sentence:

• Deliver a client centred services that assists people who are at a distance from the labour market, including people with health and capability issues, to be prepare for employment and to move into the world of work

Peer comment(s):
agree Lianne van de Ven : Well, that sounds about right, then :-)
2 mins
Thanks!
agree Dr Lofthouse
28 mins
Thanks!
neutral MoiraB : I'm not in favour of perpetuating jargon, especially when it's not clear what it means...
31 mins
Hmm. I agree that 'people with poor job prospects' sounds a lot better. However, it does seem to be jargon that is used by a lot of large organisations in the UK and Scotland...
neutral philgoddard : Agree with MoiraB.
1 hr
Me too.
agree David Walker (X) : Don't like jargon myself - this, unluckily, is widely used.
3 hrs
Thanks David!
agree Kitty Brussaard
3 hrs
Thanks Kitty!
neutral Barend van Zadelhoff : I checked the number of hits site:uk = 29 : "at a distance from the labour market" site:uk.. To be honest, and as you agreed yourself, I don't think this sounds like an elegant solution // Not widely used, please check carefully.
4 hrs
Inelegant perhaps, but widely used. However, if it was my text, I would probably opt for MoiraB's suggestion. / Perhaps not 'widely used' then, but used by very reliable sources (see my last discussion entry).
agree Natasha Ziada (X) : Amazingly, even though it sounds like a 'Dutchism', this seems to be in use. Also seen: 'with a labour market disadvantage'
7 hrs
Thanks Natasha!
neutral freekfluweel : Somehow, I don't like it...
1 day 16 hrs
Something went wrong...
+1
1 hr

do not meet the minimum requirements for the job

another option perhaps

you don't need to translate 'arbeidsmarkt' :


'Is het inzetten van mensen met een afstand tot de arbeidsmarkt een oplossing voor de naderende personeelstekorten?

'Is employment of people who do not meet the minimum requirements for the job a solution for the expected shortages of workers?

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs (2013-09-16 17:22:47 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

I mean, of course, you don't need to translate it 'literally'.
I translated it implicitly as 'the job', which represents the 'job market'.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Natasha Ziada (X) : Not quite the same - reqs could refer to a specific (technical or otherwise) skill set the employee needs to be able to fulfill a job. 'Afstand t/d arbeidsmarkt' refers to those who generally have trouble finding a job - any kind of job.
5 hrs
Exactly the problem, they need "skilled professionals in the construction industry" (see context) 'afstand tot' means in this context people who don't meet these requirements. It happens in education currently, employing people not meeting ...
agree MoiraB : could work in this context
13 hrs
Thank you, Moira.
neutral Marjolein Snippe : 'met afstand tot de arbeidsmarkt' includes people who may meet the requirements, but have been out of work for a long time
14 hrs
And therefore, if this were so, from a practical and relevant point of view don't meet the requirements. Especially when there seems to be a tendency, see context, to employ people who are not suitable for the job.
neutral Michael Beijer : (possibly) too specific and doesn't (or might not) cover various groups of people that belong to this group. See my discussion entry titled 'wat zijn mensen met een afstand tot arbeidsmarkt?' / I disagree. See my latest discussion entry.
19 hrs
Certainly also these categories of people, should they be included, don't meet the requirements for working in the construction industry. 'don't meet the requirements' can be used for any unsuitable category:= here not being skilled professionals.
Something went wrong...
+1
1 day 21 hrs

(those who) have lost contact with the labour market

This is a polite way of referring to those on long-term benefits who have basically given up looking for work. Afstand, distance, is psychological not physical.
Peer comment(s):
agree freekfluweel : Like (thumb up)! It's indeed "psychological"!
22 hrs
Something went wrong...
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