ราย

20:05 Jun 1, 2018 

I shared that article not to assert any argument but to show another relevant angle. Back to the case in question: I asked this question, I'm not advocating or proposing a single answer! However, the references were convincing enough that case should be used in this example. I might argue that if 'subject' (or even patient) was to be used, the Thai classifier would be "คน".<p>On your point about omitting the classifier, while ideal in many cases, the fact is that we're using CAT tools and this is often within its own segment. It cannot be omitted in this case ;)

19:53 Jun 1, 2018 

Good point, the forum would be a better place for the volunteer/subject discussion.

I'm wondering if we could make one more attempt to get to the bottom of "case" in this instance, though. Maybe I’m missing something, but I’m not sure how your examples of “case” and “patient” are supporting the choice of “case” in this answer. This article's use of "case" seems in broad keeping with the way that Sarah laid it out earlier.

If consistency is the key, are you advocating the use of “case” in all instances of อาสาสมัคร, instead of subject? Or to describe people who are completing the study, as per your source term? And do you agree with us about the need to replicate the classifier in English? I'm still not sure what answer is being proposed here.

19:34 Jun 1, 2018 

This discussion might be better suited to the forums, as it has drifted away from the original term and might be more beneficial to the wider TH-EN translation community.

18:39 Jun 1, 2018 

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news Sarah and Patrick but no, the likelihood of anyone ‘wanting to understand wording and policies’ or even reading clinical trial translations is next to nil. These translations make up the giant backlog of documentation required for clinical trials, as talked about here:<p> “One of the most common questions asked by investigators participating in clinical trials is: How much documentation is enough? Their frustration has to do with the fact that no amount of detailed documentation seems to satisfy monitors, auditors and inspectors.” https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3088955/ <p>There is much debate on the use/misuse of Notes to File (what some translate as “additional documents”) in the English-language media. Our Thai investigators are just following the same requirements.<p>If something goes wrong in the trial, then these may get accessed to provide a paper trail. With this in mind, trying to insert your own interpretation of source language subtleties and nuances (unless critical) is a hindrance rather than aid to the purposes of the translation.

18:18 Jun 1, 2018 

From an article about editing tips for clinical trials: “a case is an occurrence of a clinical condition, and a patient is an individual with a clinical condition. Additionally, a case is presented or reported, whereas a patient is described.” <p>The article does go on to suggest consistency being key, however, and to avoid using two separate terms. https://www.aje.com/en/arc/editing-tip-case-vs-patient/ <p>In our study, 10 cases (20%) out of 50 cases had evidence of tuberculosis co-infection. (consistent)
In our study, 10 patients (20%) out of 50 patients had evidence of tuberculosis co-infection. (consistent)

17:36 Jun 1, 2018 

That's well put, Sarah. This was something I was trying to get at in the คุณ / หนู discussion: that we're not producing clinical trial documents for English subjects, but for those interested in what's going on in the Thai trials. At least that's also my feeling—perhaps I'm wrong.

I find it can sometimes be hard to discuss such points with PMs (it's hard enough among translators!), who are after all our only points of contact with this audience you're referring to, but I certainly think it would be worth bringing up.

15:58 Jun 1, 2018 

Regarding the controversy over the preferred English term for individuals enrolled in clinical research, I agree that our role as translators requires a measure of neutrality when it comes to debated topics, similar to the way that interpreters are required to be impartial facilitators of communication rather than advocates for an LEP person.
<p>That being said, the reason I have wondered whether translating อาสาสมัคร as "subject(s)" rather than "volunteer(s)" obscures the source language term relates to the overall purpose of the translation into English. I trust that you will correct me if I'm wrong, but it would seem that in most cases, TH>EN translations of clinical trial documents are not for the benefit of subjects who are native speakers of English but rather for employees or agents of the study sponsor whose role includes making and reviewing decisions about the terminology used in any language in which the study is conducted.</p>
<p>With that in mind, even when the source language is actually Thai, it seems that the purpose of the translation is to enable the study sponsor employees/agents to understand the wording and policies being followed by their investigators.</p>

15:37 Jun 1, 2018 

Patrick, thank you for clarifying and elaborating on the point I tried (imperfectly) to make earlier. In my first comment I intended to suggest that rearranging the sentence in English eliminates the need for any classifier (eliminates the need for translating ราย at all) and sounds natural instead of translated. I gave an example of this in my second comment, in which I suggested changing:
<p>”Total number of currently enrolled subjects in the same protocol: _ cases"</p>
to:
<p>"Total number of subjects currently enrolled in the same protocol: _"</p>
<p>It seems that eliminating the classifier would produce the most natural translation in most, if not all, instances.</p>

13:39 Jun 1, 2018 

But this approach doesn’t work so well in the example similar to yours: จำนวนอาสาสมัครทั้งหมดที่เข้าร่วมโครงการวิจัยเดียวกัน ณ ปัจจุบัน ___ ราย = "Total number of subjects currently enrolled in the same protocol ___ cases". This is unnatural. Worse would be “Total number of cases currently enrolled in the same protocol”.

Perhaps most importantly, though, for someone wanting to avoid an overly literal translation, is that there is no need to translate the classifier at all. Your sentence would be fine as “Number of subjects who have completed the research: ______ “ If you insisted on a literal translation of the source, however, the classifier “subjects” would be more appropriate than “cases”.

13:39 Jun 1, 2018 

Maybe I can be clearer... ราย can be a classifier for both a thing and a person. ราย = ลักษณนามใช้แก่สิ่งที่มีลักษณะเป็นเรื่อง ส่วน บุคคล หรือสิ่งซึ่งแยกกล่าวเป็นอย่างๆ ไป. I believe you’re implying that “case" is only a neutral classifier meaning “instance”. This is overlooking that ราย can certainly be a classifier for an อาสาสมัคร, which is how I think it’s being used here. More interesting is that “case” can be a translation of both อาสาสมัคร and its ราย classifier, as in "a person or their particular problem requiring or receiving medical attention", in certain contexts.

Sarah’s original point was about achieving a natural English sentence. The PSU document uses “case” to mean an อาสาสมัคร who has had an SAE. That’s why จำนวนอาสาสมัครที่เกิดเหตุการณ์ไม่พึงประสงค์จากยาวิจัยเดียวกันในโครงการวิจัยอื่น ____ ราย is given as "Total number of SAE cases [who] received the same drug in other protocols ____ cases”. “Case” in this case is justifiable.

00:01 Jun 1, 2018 

I'd like to point out the sentence in this example, as there are some points you made that need further clarification. <p>
<strong>อาสาสมัคร</strong>ที่เสร็จสิ้นการวิจัย....จำนวน....<strong>ราย</strong><p>
In this sentence, the subject (not อาสาสมัคร) of the sentence, "อาสาสมัคร", has been made clear at the beginning. "ราย" is the Thai language classifier that is often unnecessary in English, used when counting in Thai. Interestingly enough, see here: http://www.thai-language.com/ref/classifier-list ราย - lists, <strong>cases</strong> "list of items; record; tally; story; account; item; statement; case"<p>
I have never seen it translated as persons, and while this has been awarded the most 'agrees' I don't think this is correct.
<p>
And I know you're eager to suggest it but I'll decline it pre-emptively, no, we cannot transcribe it as "raai" and use this instead. (555 please forgive my pun!)<p>
With your statement "an English-language clinical trial doesn't recruit "cases", but does recruit "subjects", for a clinical trial to recruit cases, my best guess is that the Thai would be put like this: <strong>กรณี</strong>ที่เสร็จสิ้นการวิจัย....จำนวน....<strong>กรณี</strong> or the like

16:47 May 31, 2018 

I'm a little late to this discussion, but I think Sarah's original point about the difference between case and participant (or subject) is particularly relevant. In Theresa's PSU example both "case" and "subject" are used, and case appears to be referring to SAEs, which I agree would be appropriate. However, I agree with Dylan that "subject" should be used generally as the accepted term in English-language clinical trials—for the same reason, "case" as a general classifier for อาสาสมัครที่เสร็จสิ้นการวิจัย (i.e. not simply subjects affected by an SAE, but all completing research) would seem to be inappropriate. See page 41 of Theresa's PSU document: จํานวนอาสาสมครที่เสร็จสิ้นการวิจัย [...] ราย is followed by "(Subjects completed)". The same would be true when referring to subjects being recruited: an English-language clinical trial doesn't recruit "cases", but does recruit "subjects".

I also find Sarah's observation about อาสาสมัคร interesting. As Dylan mentions, there is a debate over whether subject is appropriate in English, so I find it interesting that our Thai sources have come down on the humanising side of the debate. Would our readers be interested? Depends who, I guess.

19:08 May 30, 2018 

Back translations are a different case altogether, let’s not get too muddled up here. If you’re doing a back translation you should follow the standard practice for back translating. The discussion above has not been about back translations though, so we should select the correct, most appropriate term. Literal translations are not what we’re hired to do.

13:23 May 30, 2018 

This might be going off on a bit of a tangent, but when translating (or back translating) clinical research materials, I have wondered if translating อาสาสมัคร as "subject(s)" obscures the fact that in Thai the term used to refer to study participants is a word that in other contexts would be translated as "volunteers". If the arguments against using terms such as "participants" and "volunteers" are solid, would it be helpful for English speakers reviewing the protocols and/or translations to be aware that study subjects are referred to in Thai as "volunteers"?

00:49 May 29, 2018 

Theresa's references are clear and convincing.<p><p>

The issue with 'person' is that terms used regarding clinical trials in US-English do not 'personify' the human participants in trials. There seems to be a lot of debate about the 'human' aspect in trials but we as translators should not be participating in this debate or contributing to it, it's not our role. Our role is to select the most appropriate, widely accepted terms and use these in our translation. Not translate literally, not try to influence the debate.<p><p>

While อาสาสมัคร is used when referring to study participants, volunteers or patients, "on the whole, 'subject' is the most appropriate title for those involved in research studies" - http://blog.primr.org/subjects-vs-participants/<p><...

With this in mind and until the wider industry consensus changes, I tend to agree that the non-humanising classifier 'case' would be the right term for ราย.

<p><p>Subject, Volunteer, Participant or Patient? https://www.clariness.com/2016/07/18/subject-volunteer-parti...

21:41 May 28, 2018 

<p>An excerpt from one of the references provided illustrates the suggestions made so far:</p>
<p>7. จำนวนอาสาสมัครทั้งหมดที่เข้าร่วมโครงการวิจัยเดียวกัน ณ ปัจจุบัน (Total number of currently enrolled subjects in the same protocol): _ ราย (cases)</p>
<p>8. จำนวนอาสาสมัครที่เกิดเหตุการณ์ไม่พึงประสงค์จากยาวิจัยเดียวกันในโครงการวิจัยอื่น (Total number of SAE cases received the same drug in other protocols): _ ราย (cases)</p>
<p>In my opinion, eliminating the classifier in the English translation, as in item 7, sounds more natural and adding "cases" is unnecessary (e.g., "Total number of subjects currently enrolled in the same protocol: _")</p>
<p>The definition for the English word "case" that seems relevant is:</p>
<p>an instance of a disease or problem: 200,000 cases of hepatitis B.</p>
<p>• a person or their particular problem requiring or receiving medical or welfare attention</p>
<p>So the word "case" seems more appropriate when referrring to SAEs and less appropriate when referring to study participants in general since not all clinical trial subjects are suffering from a health problem; rather, in some studies, healthy persons have volunteered to participate in medical research

04:54 May 28, 2018 

“individuals” works also, since in this case ราย is the classifier for อาสาสมัคร but of course you might just rearrange the sentence in English so that it is worded as x subjects (volunteers)