A témához tartozó oldalak:   < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] >
NEVER ask the client
Téma indítója: Daniel Frisano

Philip Lees  Identity Verified
Görögország
Local time: 01:01
Tag (2008 óta)
görög - angol
How to ask questions Apr 3

Rachel Waddington wrote:

Knowing when and how to ask questions is important.



I agree entirely, and it's possible to have a productive discussion about what questions we might need to ask and how best to ask them. For example, suppose you have a source text in which part of the text has obviously been accidentally deleted or omitted. What are we supposed to do? Guess what it said?

However, the way the issue was posed by the OP was clearly as a troll.


Rachel Waddington
Baran Keki
Ines R, PhD
P.L.F.Persio
Mervyn Henderson
Teresa Borges
expressisverbis
 

Mervyn Henderson  Identity Verified
Spanyolország
Local time: 00:01
spanyol - angol
+ ...
Not a troll Apr 3

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's trolling. Just my opinion. I think Daniel just had the urge to blurt something out, but it was the way he did it, rather than what he said.

But what do "questions" mean, anyway? About translation? Well, maybe. Like Thomas said, we don't know how the whole world works in two languages, because who does? You have to ask the odd question. "What term would you use here in your sector?" etc. - why not? But other stuff, outside the translation, the grey
... See more
I wouldn't go so far as to say it's trolling. Just my opinion. I think Daniel just had the urge to blurt something out, but it was the way he did it, rather than what he said.

But what do "questions" mean, anyway? About translation? Well, maybe. Like Thomas said, we don't know how the whole world works in two languages, because who does? You have to ask the odd question. "What term would you use here in your sector?" etc. - why not? But other stuff, outside the translation, the grey areas, the "Are you sure this is what you want"s, no doubt about it - you have to ask.

[Edited at 2021-04-03 09:48 GMT]

[Edited at 2021-04-03 10:22 GMT]
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Thomas T. Frost
P.L.F.Persio
Angie Garbarino
Teresa Borges
expressisverbis
Kevin Fulton
Rachel Waddington
 

Angie Garbarino  Identity Verified
Tag (2003 óta)
francia - olasz
+ ...
Yes Apr 3

Mervyn Henderson wrote:
it was the way he did it, rather than what he said.


Not a troll.


Mervyn Henderson
 

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
Egyesült Királyság
Local time: 23:01
Tag (2004 óta)
angol - olasz
Daniel is not a troll... Apr 3

just a colleague with very strong - and sometimes not very flexible - ideas...

Thomas T. Frost
Mervyn Henderson
Angie Garbarino
expressisverbis
 

Philip Lees  Identity Verified
Görögország
Local time: 01:01
Tag (2008 óta)
görög - angol
Post not person Apr 3

Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL wrote:

just a colleague with very strong - and sometimes not very flexible - ideas...


I'm familiar with Daniel's contributions and I know this is not his usual modus operandi. However, the particular post that started this thread, with its aggressive, almost insulting tone ("translators are seen as a bunch of inepts") and use of ALLCAPS, meets the criteria for a troll, in my view.

Just to be clear, I was talking about the post, not the person.


Teresa Borges
expressisverbis
P.L.F.Persio
Mervyn Henderson
 

Daniel Frisano  Identity Verified
Olaszország
Local time: 00:01
Tag (2008 óta)
angol - olasz
+ ...
TÉMAINDÍTÓ
  Apr 3

If I were a troll, you'd be feeding me like a sumo wrestler by now.

Let's just say that the original post was driven by my frustration at the general (and growing) clumsiness and helplessness, and also curiosity about the possible reactions. And I can't say that I've been disappointed, in a way.

While I still believe that taking more responsibilities and being willing to guide and advise the client would benefit the profession as a whole*, I realize now that it's a lost
... See more
If I were a troll, you'd be feeding me like a sumo wrestler by now.

Let's just say that the original post was driven by my frustration at the general (and growing) clumsiness and helplessness, and also curiosity about the possible reactions. And I can't say that I've been disappointed, in a way.

While I still believe that taking more responsibilities and being willing to guide and advise the client would benefit the profession as a whole*, I realize now that it's a lost cause.

And no, as a couple of you suggested in your (anonymous) private messages, I don't claim that I'm perfect, nor better than anyone else. With 13 million words in the bag, I've certainly made my share of mistakes...


- - -

*e nel caso della mia specifica lingua madre anche la ricchezza e l'espressività della lingua stessa, vittima di uno spaventoso declino negli ultimi decenni,

[Edited at 2021-04-03 11:50 GMT]
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Gerard Barry
 

Mervyn Henderson  Identity Verified
Spanyolország
Local time: 00:01
spanyol - angol
+ ...
Frustration Apr 3

In a tone that, I fear, can only be construed as condescending, but hey, I can't see any other way to do it, I/we understand your frustration, Daniel. Just remember that your frustration is just that, your frustration, but not necessarily everyone else's, and be less brusque next time, that's all.

[Edited at 2021-04-03 12:01 GMT]


Teresa Borges
expressisverbis
P.L.F.Persio
Thomas T. Frost
Baran Keki
Laura Kingdon
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
 

Nikki Scott-Despaigne  Identity Verified
Local time: 00:01
francia - angol
Professional humility and respecting your client Apr 3

Yes, we are paid to make decisions on language. A little bit of humility will go a long way, however. Negotiating and discussing what the client actually means at a particular point in a text generally enhances the quality of what you are providing. In many instances, it is the very least the client deserves in terms of respect. It shows you care, it means you care.

There is a world of difference between being a confident and competent professional and labouring under the belief tha
... See more
Yes, we are paid to make decisions on language. A little bit of humility will go a long way, however. Negotiating and discussing what the client actually means at a particular point in a text generally enhances the quality of what you are providing. In many instances, it is the very least the client deserves in terms of respect. It shows you care, it means you care.

There is a world of difference between being a confident and competent professional and labouring under the belief that one has infused science. Where the former can express a professional posture, the latter can lead to arrogance. The former will grow, the latter may stagnate. I know which I would rather be and with whom I would rather work.
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P.L.F.Persio
Teresa Borges
Thomas T. Frost
Baran Keki
expressisverbis
Marina Taffetani
Liviu-Lee Roth
 

Niina Lahokoski  Identity Verified
Finnország
Local time: 01:01
Tag (2008 óta)
angol - finn
+ ...
Practical examples Apr 3

I agree that one shouldn't ask unnecessary questions or make the client do one's research. Knowing when and what to ask is an important skill for translators. Still, questions are sometimes unavoidable.
Here a couple of practical examples from a recent UI localization job. Would you feel comfortable translating them without any more infomation? (Although perhaps I'm taking a professional risk here by exposing my own insecurity/stupidity as a translator?)
"Ring·application"
"Re
... See more
I agree that one shouldn't ask unnecessary questions or make the client do one's research. Knowing when and what to ask is an important skill for translators. Still, questions are sometimes unavoidable.
Here a couple of practical examples from a recent UI localization job. Would you feel comfortable translating them without any more infomation? (Although perhaps I'm taking a professional risk here by exposing my own insecurity/stupidity as a translator?)
"Ring·application"
"Recording"
"Create Question Error"
"Time User Logged On"
"Failure Attempts"
"on %1"


[Edited at 2021-04-03 12:56 GMT]
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P.L.F.Persio
Mervyn Henderson
 

Kuochoe Nikoi-Kotei  Identity Verified
Ghána
Local time: 22:01
japán - angol
Still waiting for the big reveal Apr 3

I've scanned the whole thread and I still haven't seen the words I was expecting to see from Daniel Frisano: "April Fools!"

Mervyn Henderson
Thomas T. Frost
expressisverbis
P.L.F.Persio
 

Daniel Frisano  Identity Verified
Olaszország
Local time: 00:01
Tag (2008 óta)
angol - olasz
+ ...
TÉMAINDÍTÓ
One last remark, then I'll let the thread evolve at will Apr 3

We ARE seen like a bunch of clueless inepts. Just because a client doesn't say it in our faces, that doesn't mean they don't believe so.

We may or may not be, but we are certainly seen as such.

Ad 95% of the contents of this thread do nothing to dispel that notion.

[Edited at 2021-04-03 13:28 GMT]


Gerard Barry
 

Niina Lahokoski  Identity Verified
Finnország
Local time: 01:01
Tag (2008 óta)
angol - finn
+ ...
Just one more question Apr 3

If we were truly all seen as clueless inepts by our clients like you say, surely they would stop sending work our way. Why would anyone want to keep sending assignments to someone they see as unprofessional?

[Edited at 2021-04-03 13:30 GMT]


Teresa Borges
expressisverbis
Angie Garbarino
P.L.F.Persio
Marina Taffetani
Ines R, PhD
Philip Lees
 

P.L.F.Persio  Identity Verified
Hollandia
Local time: 00:01
Tag (2010 óta)
angol - olasz
+ ...
Frustration Apr 3

Daniel Frisano wrote:

Let's just say that the original post was driven by my frustration at the general (and growing) clumsiness and helplessness, and also curiosity about the possible reactions. And I can't say that I've been disappointed, in a way.

While I still believe that taking more responsibilities and being willing to guide and advise the client would benefit the profession as a whole*, I realize now that it's a lost cause.

*e nel caso della mia specifica lingua madre anche la ricchezza e l'espressività della lingua stessa, vittima di uno spaventoso declino negli ultimi decenni,

[Edited at 2021-04-03 11:50 GMT]


Daniel, your frustration at the general (and growing) clumsiness and helplessness is legitimate and well-founded, and I think many of us share it and agree with you on this point.

We see a lot of clumsy and helpless askers in the Kudoz section. A couple of weeks ago, I agreed with an answer you gave to one of those people: a really brilliant answer, with more than a spark of originality and creativity. But I knew it wasn't going to be chosen, since that asker has proven him/herself to be not the sharpest tool in the box in too many occasions.
We've got a number of source languages in common, so I've often seen your name popping out, always giving valid, thought-out contributions, even to people who clearly don't know what to do with them.

That's why I don't understand either your initial provocative outburst, or your final post. You know perfectly well the difference between a clueless translator and one who works conscientiously. And so do we.

As for the decline of our beloved native language, well, don't get me started on this one, or you'll never hear the end of it. Years ago, I remember reading an interview that a young, best-selling Italian author gave to an Italian newspaper. They asked him what writers had inspired him, and he admitted that he was more inspired by film-makers, rather than literary figures. OK, which film-makers: Ejzenštejn, Bergman, Fellini, Kurosawa? Erm... no, Tarantino.
OK, Tarantino is no Tommy Wiseau but still. When even a writer can't be bothered to read other writers, what could we expect by legions of fresh graduates in Translation Studies, some of whom wouldn't be able to find their own jaksies with a GPS?

I'm aware that I may have gone spectacularly OT but, in my defence, I think that an interesting topic tends to branch out into different directions. My apologies!

On the other hand, many people have replied to you in an intelligent, considered way, but you keep on poo-pooing on all of us.

And one last thing: We ARE seen like a bunch of clueless inepts. Just because a client doesn't say it in our faces, that doesn't mean they don't believe so.

We may or may not be, but we are certainly seen as such.
As we say in Da Old Country: parla per te!


expressisverbis
Teresa Borges
Mervyn Henderson
Peter Shortall
Ines R, PhD
Sadek_A
 

expressisverbis
Portugália
Local time: 23:01
Tag (2015 óta)
angol - portugál
+ ...
We are seen as professionals who care about getting the job right... Apr 3

Daniel Frisano wrote:

We ARE seen like a bunch of clueless inepts.



... And I am sure that most of my colleagues here also share the same opinion.
Clients who understand the nature of translation will appreciate and welcome the translator asking clarifying and smart questions about the job.
In fact, many clients like to be asked legitimate questions, because it shows that translators are professionals who care about getting the job right, aiming to do a high quality, professional job on the translation.


Thomas T. Frost
Teresa Borges
Mervyn Henderson
P.L.F.Persio
Ines R, PhD
Christel Zipfel
Philip Lees
 

Marina Taffetani  Identity Verified
Olaszország
Local time: 00:01
Tag (2013 óta)
német - olasz
+ ...
Well... Apr 3

Maybe you're the one who sees your colleagues as a bunch of clueless inepts.

You've started this thread right after you answered a question by a colleague on the Italian forum. Specifically, I replied to her suggesting she might ask the client, and you basically wrote the same things you said in your first post here.

When I look at the KudoZ section, I agree there are clumsy and helpless people out there. So much so, that I had to filter some of the askers in order not
... See more
Maybe you're the one who sees your colleagues as a bunch of clueless inepts.

You've started this thread right after you answered a question by a colleague on the Italian forum. Specifically, I replied to her suggesting she might ask the client, and you basically wrote the same things you said in your first post here.

When I look at the KudoZ section, I agree there are clumsy and helpless people out there. So much so, that I had to filter some of the askers in order not to get angry every time I saw their silly questions pop up in my email. Still, there are many wonderful and professional colleagues here, and I think showing some respect might be in order.

I'm totally with Nikki on this subject.
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Thomas T. Frost
expressisverbis
Teresa Borges
P.L.F.Persio
Angie Garbarino
Mervyn Henderson
Laura Kingdon
 
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