Pages in topic: [1 2] > | Abolishing the compulsory space between numeral and unit Thread poster: Thomas Miles
| Thomas Miles France Local time: 19:34 French to English + ...
I am planning to write to the international body for weights and measures (BIPM) to request that they withdraw their rule requiring a space to be inserted between the numeral and measurement unit (e.g. '60 W', '5 m'). Before submitting this request, I would like to hear from other translators who support this change (potentially for reasons other than the seven outlined below) or who wish to voice counter-arguments. My arguments for no space between the numeral and meas... See more I am planning to write to the international body for weights and measures (BIPM) to request that they withdraw their rule requiring a space to be inserted between the numeral and measurement unit (e.g. '60 W', '5 m'). Before submitting this request, I would like to hear from other translators who support this change (potentially for reasons other than the seven outlined below) or who wish to voice counter-arguments. My arguments for no space between the numeral and measurement unit (e.g. '60W', '5m') are: 1. Tendancy among most people unaware of this rule to omit the space, making correct practice harder to enforce and proofreading more burdensome. 2. Even amongst those aware of the rule, there are doubts over whether a space is required before a degree or percentage symbol, resulting in inconsistency. 3. Unless special typographic measures are applied, there is a risk that the unit is separated from the numeral by a line break. 4. In many technical situations, such as a rating plate or packaging, a more compact format is desired. 5. Removing unnecessary spaces adds to clarity in confusing situations such as 'ø90mm max, 500ml' or '1.55V 390/389 HFH3 battery'. 6. English grammar leads some to replace the space by a hyphen in situations such as 'a 60-W lightbulb', undermining the very rule itself. 7. To counter the argument that the currently ordained format represents the multiplication of two quantities, the BIPM's own guide also permits the format 'ab' for this purpose. ▲ Collapse | | | Samuel Murray Netherlands Local time: 19:34 Member (2006) English to Afrikaans + ... | Non-breaking space | Aug 30, 2020 |
Thomas Miles wrote: 3. Unless special typographic measures are applied, there is a risk that the unit is separated from the numeral by a line break. Just insert a non-breaking space (ALT+0160 on Windows): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-breaking_space Other than that, we have always used spaces between numbers and measurement units in Italy, and we're still alive | | | Samuel Murray Netherlands Local time: 19:34 Member (2006) English to Afrikaans + ... On using non-breaking spaces | Aug 30, 2020 |
Marina Taffetani wrote: Just insert a non-breaking space (ALT+0160 on Windows). Can you demonstrate this here on the forum... without resorting to HTML? I find a thin space more reliable, e.g. 12 V, but not 100% reliable either. If I post to Facebook, neither no-break space nor thin space survives (they're both converted by Facebook to ordinary spaces). On this forum, thin space survives, but no-break space doesn't. And I think that this may be a point that the OP is trying to make: long ago, when BIPM was formed, only well-proofread text ever made it to print, but the world has changed, and the ability to ensure compliance on various platforms is greatly diminished. It is no longer just scientists who write these symbols.
[Edited at 2020-08-30 11:44 GMT] | |
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I wonder if the fact that some people do it wrong is reason enough for the rest of us not to do it right… | | | Heinrich Pesch Finland Local time: 20:34 Member (2003) Finnish to German + ... I don't support it | Aug 30, 2020 |
We are professional linguists and our job is to deliver text according to the rules. Some people omit space after full stops between sentences, or they put a space before a comma, should we give in to every folly? | | | Thomas Miles France Local time: 19:34 French to English + ... TOPIC STARTER @Teresa @Heinrich | Aug 30, 2020 |
What if the rule is both the unnatural choice for most people (reason 1) and undesirable for a number of other reasons (reasons 2-7). Should we never question the logic of a rule because it is the rule? Is that how the world works? | | | Kaspars Melkis United Kingdom Local time: 18:34 English to Latvian + ... the space is for the reader, not the writer | Aug 30, 2020 |
The space between the number and the unit improves perception. It is much easier to read 100 kg instead of 100kg. If the systems don't support it, then we should improve the systems instead of making it harder for readers. That is the same reason why sometimes µg is written as mcg, especially in medicine because µ can be misread as u (units) or m (mg). Similarly, in handwriting 100U could be easily misread as 1000 leading to 10-fold overdose. The recommendations to the doctors is ... See more The space between the number and the unit improves perception. It is much easier to read 100 kg instead of 100kg. If the systems don't support it, then we should improve the systems instead of making it harder for readers. That is the same reason why sometimes µg is written as mcg, especially in medicine because µ can be misread as u (units) or m (mg). Similarly, in handwriting 100U could be easily misread as 1000 leading to 10-fold overdose. The recommendations to the doctors is to always write units in full instead of abbreviation. However, I think in printed text 100 U will be clear enough while 100U would make me confused. ▲ Collapse | |
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Erik Freitag Germany Local time: 19:34 Member (2006) Dutch to German + ... Typography is for the reader, not the author | Aug 30, 2020 |
Most of the reasons in your list pertain to make things easier for the author and the translator. However, the main purpouse of typographic rules and conventions is to make a text easy and pleasant to read. Since the advent of word processors, all sorts of people have the possibility to create printed text without having appropriate knowledge of typography. The fact that they lack knowledge of existing rules is no good reason to change those rules. I also don't find any of the other... See more Most of the reasons in your list pertain to make things easier for the author and the translator. However, the main purpouse of typographic rules and conventions is to make a text easy and pleasant to read. Since the advent of word processors, all sorts of people have the possibility to create printed text without having appropriate knowledge of typography. The fact that they lack knowledge of existing rules is no good reason to change those rules. I also don't find any of the other reasons you give compelling. It's our job as translators to produce a text that conforms to the rules of the target language. If that means inserting a non-breaking space before each and every unit of measurement, then so be it.
[Edited at 2020-08-30 18:00 GMT] ▲ Collapse | | |
There are no rules in English. There is just custom and usage. I was unaware of this “rule”. I would always expect to see it written as 20W bulb. I think it makes it easier to read. | | |
See: https://www.amazon.in/Philips-LED-Glass-Bulb-White/dp/B00Y8P1STK Manufacturer writes with space: 20 W. Seller writes without space: 20W. Some other manufacturers write without space, some sellers add the space - see https://tiny.pl/7185n . During my... See more See: https://www.amazon.in/Philips-LED-Glass-Bulb-White/dp/B00Y8P1STK Manufacturer writes with space: 20 W. Seller writes without space: 20W. Some other manufacturers write without space, some sellers add the space - see https://tiny.pl/7185n . During my polytechnical studies, I was taught to write with space: 20 W, 2700 K, 230 V, 50/60 Hz, 0.15 A, etc. (e.g. Philips and many (or all?) European companies). Yet, some other manufacturers write without space (e.g. Sylvania, Panasonic). To me, the "with space" option is natural, while the "no space" option is not.
[Zmieniono 2020-08-30 21:44 GMT] ▲ Collapse | | | Simple reason to keep the space | Aug 31, 2020 |
There is a purely linguistic reason to use the space: 12 V is twelve volts, not twelvevolts. One can also use the number with an unabbreviated unit: 12 volts. However, 12V does not seem to be a flogging offence, either, it's one of those rules we drop in SMS and other terse texts.
[Edited at 2020-08-31 08:46 GMT] | |
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Tom in London United Kingdom Local time: 18:34 Member (2008) Italian to English
I always write (for example) 20m without a full stop. Not 20m. or 20 m | | | Heinrich Pesch Finland Local time: 20:34 Member (2003) Finnish to German + ...
Chris S wrote: There are no rules in English. There is just custom and usage. I was unaware of this “rule”. I would always expect to see it written as 20W bulb. I think it makes it easier to read. The value of a quantity is written as a number followed by a space (representing a multiplication sign) and a unit symbol; e.g., 2.21 kg, 7.3×102 m2, 22 K. This rule explicitly includes the percent sign (%) and the symbol for degrees Celsius (°C). There are countries that don't care of international standards, but that's up to them. | | | Anne Maclennan Local time: 19:34 Member (2010) German to English + ... Keep the space | Aug 31, 2020 |
I disagree. I was taught on my BSs course that the correct scientific convention is: 20 m 6 cm with a space between numeral and measurement. As translators it is our job to translate according to correct and accepted convention. Would you write "1,00 £" or "12,00 €" in English? I think not. The correct English convention here is "£1.00" and "€12.00". As far as I am aware, no-one argues with this, so why raise problems with sc... See more I disagree. I was taught on my BSs course that the correct scientific convention is: 20 m 6 cm with a space between numeral and measurement. As translators it is our job to translate according to correct and accepted convention. Would you write "1,00 £" or "12,00 €" in English? I think not. The correct English convention here is "£1.00" and "€12.00". As far as I am aware, no-one argues with this, so why raise problems with scientific annotation? ▲ Collapse | | | Pages in topic: [1 2] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Abolishing the compulsory space between numeral and unit Trados Studio 2022 Freelance | The leading translation software used by over 270,000 translators.
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