| Pages in topic: [1 2 3] > | How much editing is required of translators? Thread poster: dieuebersetzung
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Hello!
I am currently debating with a translator about the formatting of a Word document and it's taking a toll on my nerves.
The source document was a pdf (actually good quality as it was created from a PowerPoint file) and I converted it with Adobe software to a Word file.
The conversion looks good and identical to the pdf but of course, there are always small problems when the text of the translation gets longer than the original.
The file has 105 pages, little text on... See more Hello!
I am currently debating with a translator about the formatting of a Word document and it's taking a toll on my nerves.
The source document was a pdf (actually good quality as it was created from a PowerPoint file) and I converted it with Adobe software to a Word file.
The conversion looks good and identical to the pdf but of course, there are always small problems when the text of the translation gets longer than the original.
The file has 105 pages, little text on each page (1 to 2 sentences) and a picture or 2 on each page.
Well, I got it back with 658 pages, the translator used the font of the first headline all through the file.
I requested she look at it again and after some back and forth got back a version with some 400 pages, she only deleted the blank pages.
After lots of discussion she said she'll bring it in order over the weekend. Now I got a version with 160 pages, still lots of editing work to do.
She claims she is only responsible for the translation, not the editing.
I said she should have contacted me right away when she is not even able to reduce the size of the font or change the position of an image.
What do you think? What should I say to someone who actually told me I should send the 658 pages version to my customer, he will certainly be ok with it?
How much editing skills can be expected today and what is acceptable in terms of formatting when returning a job?
I am slowly going crazy, this is the first time in 8 years I have a conflict with a translator. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Same as the source formatting | Jun 8, 2020 |
I would expect to get the file back with the same formatting as the source file, much like a CAT tool would do.
But of course if you didn't agree anything up front, the translator can claim that it's not their problem. Some people are messier than others.
On the other hand, it's not always obvious how something has been formatted in Word, and some conversion tools deliver Word files that can be tricky to work with because they have been 'brute-force' formatted rather th... See more I would expect to get the file back with the same formatting as the source file, much like a CAT tool would do.
But of course if you didn't agree anything up front, the translator can claim that it's not their problem. Some people are messier than others.
On the other hand, it's not always obvious how something has been formatted in Word, and some conversion tools deliver Word files that can be tricky to work with because they have been 'brute-force' formatted rather than formatted in a logical way (for example excessive use of text boxes rather than tables and indentations, and unnecessary right indentations that make longer translations overflow). ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray 
Netherlands
Local time: 15:48
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
dieuebersetzung wrote:
She claims she is only responsible for the translation, not the editing.
There is an expectation in this day and age that a translator receiving an editable source text will be able to deliver a translation in roughly the same format. At the very least, the font styling should be similar or identical. If you receive a Microsoft Word file, and you're not using a CAT tool (and your client knows it), then you should know how to use Microsoft Word at at least intermediate level.
However, she is right: the translator is responsible for the translation only, unless you specified that you want the translation in formatting that resembles the original. Or: unless it was clear from the context and the negotiations that you needed the translation in a format that resembles the original (even if it wasn't said outright).
I can understand her comment in the light of her having been asked to "edit" the file several times after having delivered the translation. From her perspective, she is probably just as frustrated by your requests. We have all worked on Word files that simply refused to obey us, so perhaps this is such a file?
Thomas T. Frost wrote:
I would expect to get the file back with the same formatting as the source file.
So would I.
[Edited at 2020-06-08 18:24 GMT]
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But this translator is taking the piss. If you sent a badly formatted file she should have said so at the start.
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Thanks for your input.
No, the file is actually easy to work with, as I said only very little text per page.
It is enough to change the font size when there is not enough space until you hit the end of the "easy to work with" space.
Maybe drag an image a bit.
But if you make 658 pages out of 105 and work with font size 88 instead of 24....what does that say?
I do not expect perfect formatting but this is just ridiculous. Including her advice to sent my client her ve... See more Thanks for your input.
No, the file is actually easy to work with, as I said only very little text per page.
It is enough to change the font size when there is not enough space until you hit the end of the "easy to work with" space.
Maybe drag an image a bit.
But if you make 658 pages out of 105 and work with font size 88 instead of 24....what does that say?
I do not expect perfect formatting but this is just ridiculous. Including her advice to sent my client her version, he'll probably accept it.
Hello!?!
If I see that I am totally unable to work with a file (not because it is so difficult but because I don't even know how to change the font size in Word), I get back to my customer up-front and talk about it, how on earth can you deliver a document that has 5 times more pages than it should and actually expect your customer to be ok with that? ▲ Collapse
| | | | MollyRose
United States
Local time: 08:48
English to Spanish
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| Since it was created in PowerPoint, | Jun 8, 2020 |
which is part of Microsoft Office, it seems it would have saved a lot of formatting problems by just getting the original PP and using that to translate, rather than going through two middleman programs (Adobe and Word).
| | | | | I totally agree | Jun 8, 2020 |
About ten year ago, I stopped outsourcing the occasional translation because of problems like that – misunderstood source, exaggerated skills, late delivery, poor or sloppy formatting, etc.
It's not easy to find reliable and competent translators and I don't envy agencies and all the dross they must have to sift through.
| | | | | What editing means | Jun 9, 2020 |
When I read the subject line, I thought it was about ensuring one's translation is correct, with no errors, omissions, wrong meaning, and that the target text reads naturally, can be understood etc. That's what professional translation entails. If a client wanted me to create something that looks the same appearance, they would have to tell me ahead of time. Then I might agree, and also charge extra, or suggest that they get a desktop editing professional to do this part of the work. Above ... See more When I read the subject line, I thought it was about ensuring one's translation is correct, with no errors, omissions, wrong meaning, and that the target text reads naturally, can be understood etc. That's what professional translation entails. If a client wanted me to create something that looks the same appearance, they would have to tell me ahead of time. Then I might agree, and also charge extra, or suggest that they get a desktop editing professional to do this part of the work. Above all, expectations should be spelled out, and not assumed that they will be known. That is the first part of any arrangement.
When I translate for any client, I first ask the purpose of the translation. For different types of translation, layout and other matters of appearance are important, and at other times not.
How many extras such as you describe are "required" depends on the arrangement that you have agreed upon, clearly defined, before start of the project. Imho, what is always required is that the translation is accurate, complete, and well worded. ▲ Collapse
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Kaspars Melkis
United Kingdom
Local time: 14:48
English to Latvian
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| I do not do formatting as a translator... | Jun 9, 2020 |
...apart from basic things like keeping paragraphs, using proper font size, text in italics or bold font, headings, maybe occassionally resizing the text box to fit the text.
I know how to do design. I learned a lot about typography when working in-house. We even used to design our own fonts.
But as a translator I prefer to concentrate on translating. Specialization is the key. I am more productive this way.
| | | | | the source text is evidence | Jun 9, 2020 |
First of all, I assume the fee accepted for this job is meaningful.
What I find intriguing is how a translation (target file) can expand so much if tags/font attributes are properly placed compared to the source file. The OP mentions the usual "small problems" in target layout. All translators have come across such small problems with PPT translations, and it's usually no big deal, especially in low-density PPT files. But the translator needs a whole weekend to partially fix them. O... See more First of all, I assume the fee accepted for this job is meaningful.
What I find intriguing is how a translation (target file) can expand so much if tags/font attributes are properly placed compared to the source file. The OP mentions the usual "small problems" in target layout. All translators have come across such small problems with PPT translations, and it's usually no big deal, especially in low-density PPT files. But the translator needs a whole weekend to partially fix them. On what, 3000 words?
It's not clear as to whether the translator doesn't know Word, or the source text was totally unfit for the purpose contemplated: no translator can anticipate how a Word file will look like after conversion to PPT through Adobe.
And this is the OP's responsibility.
The source text is likely what makes the difference one way or the other. If the translator doesn't know/can't replicate how the file is processed afterwards, then he has to trust that the outsourcer knows what they're doing.
That said, I can't stand excuses like "you didn't tell me that the translation should be usable", because it's obvious.
You have an order from a client, you must deliver them something usable. It is the implied part of any deal, unless you don't know your trade. If you can't or won't, you tell them and they reassess/re-negociate the order.
But in this case, it was perhaps impossible to anticipate big layout issues with the source text only.
Philippe ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I'll be clearer | Jun 9, 2020 |
This was a sort of manual.
Every page has 1-2 sentences and 1-2 images, nothing weird.
The usual small problems are only those that you may need to make the font smaller in order not to make a page break. Or reduce the size of an image.
It's nothing at all fancy.
How do you get to 658 pages from 105? Just keep the font from the first page all throughout the document.
In all my years I have seen nothing that comes even close.
So, no, the lady obviously has no ... See more This was a sort of manual.
Every page has 1-2 sentences and 1-2 images, nothing weird.
The usual small problems are only those that you may need to make the font smaller in order not to make a page break. Or reduce the size of an image.
It's nothing at all fancy.
How do you get to 658 pages from 105? Just keep the font from the first page all throughout the document.
In all my years I have seen nothing that comes even close.
So, no, the lady obviously has no idea at all how to use Word.
Yes, the fee was normal, 10 Cents per word. And a text that doesn't require much research.
I found the translator here. She accepted. I never say that I need a usable document because, well....... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 15:48
French to English
First off, I think the actual question is "how much formatting is required of translators?" because that seems to be the problem here.
It may be that the client was intending to redo the layout for the translated file anyway, in which case there's no need to format beyond making sure that it's easy to tell what each target text bite corresponds to in the source text.
I find it rather strange that the client produced a PDF from a PPT and you then generated a Word file from the pdf.... See more First off, I think the actual question is "how much formatting is required of translators?" because that seems to be the problem here.
It may be that the client was intending to redo the layout for the translated file anyway, in which case there's no need to format beyond making sure that it's easy to tell what each target text bite corresponds to in the source text.
I find it rather strange that the client produced a PDF from a PPT and you then generated a Word file from the pdf. Kind of asking for trouble surely?
Of course the best solution is to ask the client for the PPT. If they can't give that to you, you have to then point out that you might not be able to format the file working from the PDF.
If they require formatting that closely resembles that of the PDF, you may have to charge a formatting fee. You then check with the translator whether they are up for that part of the project, and assign someone else to handle it if they say they can't or won't.
Too late for all that now. I would check with the client to see exactly what they are expecting, and explain if it appears that the file supplied by the translator will need to be worked on before those expectations will be met.
I would also explain to the translator exactly what I was expecting, and that they should have told you immediately once they realised that they weren't capable of producing that. ▲ Collapse
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 15:48
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
dieuebersetzung wrote:
The usual small problems are only those that you may need to make the font smaller in order not to make a page break. Or reduce the size of an image.
Well, if the text are in text boxes, or if the images are in boxes, then from experience I can tell you that fixing font problems is not simple. For one, Ctrl+A does not select all text in the file. Fixing font or style issues document-wide when there are text boxes involves a bit of wildcard search/replace, and that is "somewhat advanced".
I suppose what you can do is to change all text to a "normal" style and a normal font size, and then ask her to fix the headings or such things as character formatting. To do that (if you have text boxes), you'd have to perform a wildcard find/replace where the find field is a question mark (?) and the replace field is set to the relevant formatting.
However, fixing headings and character formatting on 105 pages is still a lot.
How do you get to 658 pages from 105? Just keep the font from the first page all throughout the document.
In all my years I have seen nothing that comes even close. So, no, the lady obviously has no idea at all how to use Word.
Yes, this is a story for a collection of facepalm tales. I agree that if the translator did what you say she did, then she has *no idea* how to use Microsoft Word. Surely it would have occurred to her, after translating a few lines of text, that something is wrong (or: did she just zoom out when that happened?)!
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Not a single text box.
The occasional section break, that's it. But on some pages you still need to reduce font size, that's all.
If you do not, of course the whole layout is a mess and reducing the font after the fact doesn't help, it's too late, the images are all over the place.
I have asked her 3 times why she continued with the huge font, no answer.
She also sent me 2 more version, one with around 450 pages, the other with some 165.
And she actually told me to ... See more Not a single text box.
The occasional section break, that's it. But on some pages you still need to reduce font size, that's all.
If you do not, of course the whole layout is a mess and reducing the font after the fact doesn't help, it's too late, the images are all over the place.
I have asked her 3 times why she continued with the huge font, no answer.
She also sent me 2 more version, one with around 450 pages, the other with some 165.
And she actually told me to try to deliver the first version with 658 pages, saying that the customer will probably be ok with it. Can you imagine that?
I am going bonkers with this person, I am talking to a wall. ▲ Collapse
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Translation and review in CAT tool, then save to target and fix the formatting as the last stage... or maybe you don't use them...
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