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Privatization of legal interpreting services in the UK
Thread poster: Trans_Interp
Giles Watson
Giles Watson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 08:32
Italian to English
In memoriam
Disenfranchising the courts Apr 16, 2012

Charlie Bavington wrote:

there are any number of "customers" (people in court & their legal reps) and any number of "suppliers" (interpreters) but the idea is (it seems) that all transactions between them pass via one private firm, making a monopoly in one direction and a monopsony in the other.



There's more to this than cost.

The contractor is also the arbiter of who has access to court interpreting jobs.

In effect, this disenfranchises the courts, which are used to instructing an independent body to vet candidates and ensure a minimum standard of competence. Of course, certification also gives successful candidates a certain negotiating power, which is a bad thing from the point of view of civil servants/politicians/contractors who are obsessed with cutting costs.

The subtext is that cost is seen to be more important than efficiency. Since in this case efficiency is synonymous with justice, I have a feeling that the powers that be will be forced to review the situation sometime in the very near future.


 
Marie Adamova (X)
Marie Adamova (X)  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:32
English to Czech
+ ...
Yes, it is important ...:o( Apr 16, 2012

Parrot wrote:

Just a friendly reminder. This issue is important, but can be discussed without breaking http://www.proz.com/siterules/forum/8#8 . Please keep this in mind.

Best,
Cecilia



How it come you hidden my post without firtly asking me to do something with it? What a shame really ....(


 
Marie Adamova (X)
Marie Adamova (X)  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:32
English to Czech
+ ...
Interpreter causes trial collapse Apr 16, 2012

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17709440

"A Romanian defendant giving evidence at Snaresbrook Crown Court said the claimant had "beaten them" but the interpreter said "bitten".

The mistake came to light once the prosecution questioned the defendant. The judge has now ordered a retrial. "

"The retrial could cost £25,000. "


 
Giles Watson
Giles Watson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 08:32
Italian to English
In memoriam
And another thing Apr 17, 2012

If I have to do a bit of distance interpreting via Skype every time my monolingual relatives in Britain and Italy want to exchange news, why doesn't the government put out a tender for court-appropriate VOIP software?

It would give the justice system more choice, interpreters more opportunities and probably cost less than handing over wodges of cash to a contractor (see previous post).


 
Parrot
Parrot  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 08:32
Spanish to English
+ ...
@Maria Apr 17, 2012

There's a difference between hiding a post and asking for a rules-compliant edit. The site is a venue and its use is subject to rules, like any other venue. Many participants are automatically vetted for posting on the good faith they will observe these. In a constructive spirit, that good faith should also extend to fellow participants. Hope you understand.

[Edited at 2012-04-17 06:25 GMT]


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 08:32
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
On Snaresbrook case Apr 17, 2012



Tis a pity the journo did not bother to determine whether the errent interpreter was a 16, 20 or 22 pounder. Still, mishearing "bitten" for "beaten" is as much the fault of the attorney who asked that question for using unclear pronunciation. The interpreter realised her mistaken later, but did not know how to inform the court of her mistake.

Say, what is the correct procedure for a court interpreter when he discovers that he had been interpreting a certain word incorrectly for a while, after realising (from the context) that the attorney's lowsy accent is more than just annoying?


 
Susanna Garcia
Susanna Garcia  Identity Verified
Local time: 07:32
Italian to English
+ ...
In memoriam
bitten/beaten Apr 17, 2012

I may have misunderstood the situation myself, but what I thought happened was that the interpreter wrote down in English what the defendant had said in Romanian and wrote it down incorrectly and carried this mistake forward when interpreting.

 
LuciaC
LuciaC
United Kingdom
Local time: 07:32
English to Italian
+ ...
bitten/beaten Apr 17, 2012

I understood that the interpreter simply mispronounced the word. Speakers of Romance languages only know one way of pronouncing vowels and can found it hard to distinguish between short and long sounds (leek/lick, beach/bitch and many more).

The real problem was not the mistake, it was the fact that once she realized what she did, she kept quiet about it.


 
Susanna Garcia
Susanna Garcia  Identity Verified
Local time: 07:32
Italian to English
+ ...
In memoriam
Court procedure Apr 17, 2012

Thankfully this has never happened to me, Samuel, but what I would do because sooner or later the truth would come out, would be to request a halt in proceedings as I would imagine the jury would have to leave the courtroom together with any of the public present in the gallery and then inform the judge who would then make the relevant decision. In a magistrates court, I assume you would inform the clerk who would then advise the Bench
A truly dreadful position to be in, but a very good
... See more
Thankfully this has never happened to me, Samuel, but what I would do because sooner or later the truth would come out, would be to request a halt in proceedings as I would imagine the jury would have to leave the courtroom together with any of the public present in the gallery and then inform the judge who would then make the relevant decision. In a magistrates court, I assume you would inform the clerk who would then advise the Bench
A truly dreadful position to be in, but a very good example of not taking on work you are not qualified to do.

I'd also like to point out that the acoustics in many courts are less than satisfactory. You often find yourself speaking to the defendant through a tiny gap in a plexiglass screen while the lawyers are facing away from you and addressing the judge.
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Peter Shortall
Peter Shortall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Romanian to English
+ ...
13-year-old girl involved Apr 17, 2012

I understand that as a result of the failed trial, a 13-year-old girl will have to give evidence all over again, according to this:

http://www.thelawyer.com/interpreting-error-leads-to-£25000-retrial-costs/1012204.article

Aside from the FWA's impact on standards and costs, there is also the human dimension to consider.
... See more
I understand that as a result of the failed trial, a 13-year-old girl will have to give evidence all over again, according to this:

http://www.thelawyer.com/interpreting-error-leads-to-£25000-retrial-costs/1012204.article

Aside from the FWA's impact on standards and costs, there is also the human dimension to consider. In putting their careers first and clinging to the FWA, MoJ officials are, in my view, showing a callous disregard for victims of crime.
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Aisha Maniar
Aisha Maniar  Identity Verified
Member
Arabic to English
+ ...
FYI Apr 17, 2012

My report (with pictures) of the interpreters' protest outside the MoJ and Parliament yesterday: http://london.indymedia.org/articles/12086
Well done to the organisers and everyone there.
A.

[Edited at 2012-04-17 11:10 GMT]


 
Aisha Maniar
Aisha Maniar  Identity Verified
Member
Arabic to English
+ ...
p.s. Apr 17, 2012

Peter Shortall wrote:


Aside from the FWA's impact on standards and costs, there is also the human dimension to consider. In putting their careers first and clinging to the FWA, MoJ officials are, in my view, showing a callous disregard for victims of crime.



I suspect it's all just fun and games until someone loses an eye (translation: serious miscarriage of justice).


 
Peter Shortall
Peter Shortall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Romanian to English
+ ...
Another one? Apr 17, 2012

Aisha Maniar wrote:

I suspect it's all just fun and games until someone loses an eye (translation: serious miscarriage of justice).


Yes. Rumour has it that a second trial has just collapsed due to substandard work done by an interpreter at a police station, this time at Basildon Crown Court, so at this rate it may not be long till that eye is lost!

[Edited at 2012-04-17 12:57 GMT]


 
Charlie Bavington
Charlie Bavington  Identity Verified
Local time: 07:32
French to English
Er, well, yes, of course Apr 17, 2012

Giles Watson wrote:

Charlie Bavington wrote:

there are any number of "customers" (people in court & their legal reps) and any number of "suppliers" (interpreters) but the idea is (it seems) that all transactions between them pass via one private firm, making a monopoly in one direction and a monopsony in the other.



There's more to this than cost.


You know that and I know that. Almost everybody in this thread knows that.
Unfortunately, a handful of people who make the decisions appear not to.


The subtext is that cost is seen to be more important than efficiency. Since in this case efficiency is synonymous with justice, I have a feeling that the powers that be will be forced to review the situation sometime in the very near future.


If you mean that the needs of justice will prevail over cost, I'd wish you were right but I'm not so sure this will prove to be the case. There are, I think, several theoretical avenues that could and should lead to this nonsense being dropped, in addition to the daily cock-ups we keep seeing. A miscarriage of justice would be one, perhaps, but AFAIK, they take literally years procedurally. A human-rights related complaint - same usually applies.

I don't know whether I'm being cynical or just short-sighted or lacking imagination (and lacking any faith in the moral fibre of those running this circus), but this arrangement was bought in on cost grounds, and I think cost grounds will be the only thing that will see it ended. I don't think the MoJ really gives a stuff about any of the rest of it, otherwise they would have acted already. I'd like to think the drip, drip effect of the estimated costs of retrials and wasted court time we read in all the links here would be enough. I suspect a seriously expensive trial collapsing might be needed, or some other massive single cost hit.


Meanwhile, I'd like to thank Parrot for keeping the thread alive. I suspect she had enough grounds to wipe it out entirely (including several of my posts, and the slightly more personal criticism in some other posts a few days ago), but instead she's taken the far more time-consuming approach of getting people to edit the rule-breaking stuff out. Thanks, Cecilia.


 
Jennifer Forbes
Jennifer Forbes  Identity Verified
Local time: 07:32
French to English
+ ...
In memoriam
Write to your MP Apr 17, 2012

Charlie, have you - or have any of the UK-based Prozians or interpreters in this thread - written to their MPs about this lamentable business? I suppose the protest demonstration means that MPs are aware of it, but ...

 
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Privatization of legal interpreting services in the UK







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