Applying for jobs with ridiculous pay/timescales
Thread poster: D. Baker
D. Baker
D. Baker
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:58
Japanese to English
Sep 24, 2020

Hi guys

I recently saw a posting for a job that I worked out would take me around 41 hours to complete. I was halfway through writing my proposal when I saw that the poster wanted to job to be completed within one to two days!

While I wondered how on earth anyone could work to such a deadline, I backed out of the proposal because I can always imagine someone who will be willing to take much less money or compromise quality to do it in much less time than me.

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Hi guys

I recently saw a posting for a job that I worked out would take me around 41 hours to complete. I was halfway through writing my proposal when I saw that the poster wanted to job to be completed within one to two days!

While I wondered how on earth anyone could work to such a deadline, I backed out of the proposal because I can always imagine someone who will be willing to take much less money or compromise quality to do it in much less time than me.

My question is, in instances where you have to pay to submit a proposal to a client, do you bother to submit a proposal with a note saying that you will need much more time and/or money than they have stated in their requirements?

Thanks for reading.
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Kevin Fulton
Kevin Fulton  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 05:58
German to English
Don't pay to submit a proposal Sep 24, 2020

D. Baker wrote:
My question is, in instances where you have to pay to submit a proposal to a client,


I don't know when this practice started, but it's something I'd avoid if I were in your position. Requiring payment to consider a proposal is an exploitative, and in my opinion, unethical practice.

Insanely tight deadlines with correspondingly low pay are the result of several layers of subcontracting. For example Agency A contracts for a job that pays 25 cents/word with a 10-day deadline. The agency then outsources to Agency B for 20 cents/word, thus realizing a profit of 5 cents/word with little effort. This agency in turn sells the job to Agency C for 17 cents/word. Each time the job is subcontracted, the delivery deadline grows shorter. Inexperienced translators will often take a rush job from a new agency in the hope of making a good impression and getting more work with better deadlines. In many cases, this has been a false hope, as these agencies are often bottom feeders, and the deadlines are always short.

I've worked for agencies that didn't have much of a sales force, and they thrived as a subcontractor while providing quality work to the end customer without unduly stressing their translators. But they were relatively high on the food chain.

My point is that there are a lot of good agencies with reasonable deadlines that can pay an adequate – if not thrilling – rate without charging applicants.


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D. Baker
D. Baker
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:58
Japanese to English
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks! Sep 24, 2020

Thanks so much for your reply.

I absolutely hear what you're saying - I'm not thrilled about the charging per proposal model either, but the most popular sites seem to do it, proZ does it, Upwork, etc. It just seemed to me that until you had a long list of previous client testimonials there was little else you could do to get work, as it seemed like agencies look for more established translators ( x number if years working professionally, etc).

It helps to understand t
... See more
Thanks so much for your reply.

I absolutely hear what you're saying - I'm not thrilled about the charging per proposal model either, but the most popular sites seem to do it, proZ does it, Upwork, etc. It just seemed to me that until you had a long list of previous client testimonials there was little else you could do to get work, as it seemed like agencies look for more established translators ( x number if years working professionally, etc).

It helps to understand the nature of what's going on. I like the idea floated here and elsewhere that translators can come together to reject bad practices pushed by employers en masse in order to maintain minimum standards, but it is hard.

I will concentrate my efforts more on looking for welcoming agencies!
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Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 10:58
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Mrs. Baker Sep 25, 2020

D. Baker wrote:
I'm not thrilled about the charging per proposal model either, but ... ProZ.com does it...


Are you sure?

It used to be so that non-paying members could pay a small fee for quoting on a job, but I was under the impression that that is no longer possible.

https://www.proz.com/faq/jobs/finding_jobs_at_proz_com.html#do_i_have_to_pay_to_quote_
www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_job_systems/308410.html

D. Baker wrote:
In instances where you have to pay to submit a proposal to a client, do you bother to submit a proposal with a note saying that you will need much more time and/or money than they have stated in their requirements?


Well, with ProZ.com's quoting system, you can select the date of delivery as well as the price for the job in a dropdown list when you quote, so that information is shown to the client anyway. On other system (or via e-mail), it is a good idea to always include the turnaround time and the price in your quote, even if the client specified a different due date or a different price. You are not obligated to submit a quote that complies with all of the client's wishes and requirements.

However, you'd obviously want to spend less time writing a proposal if you suspect it is likely that your proposal is going to be rejected.

[Edited at 2020-09-25 08:23 GMT]


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D. Baker
D. Baker
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:58
Japanese to English
TOPIC STARTER
Paying for proposals Sep 25, 2020

I went to submit a proposal for a job yesterday on proZ and it asked me to pay $1 to submit it, so yeah.

I guess I have no problem stating a different price or timescale if the proposal is free to make, because there's not much to lose, it's more whether it's worth doing if you have to pay for it, and whether those clients who set unrealistic timescales or pay amounts are likely to choose proposals that are not as fast and/or cheap.

I'm getting the feeling though that
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I went to submit a proposal for a job yesterday on proZ and it asked me to pay $1 to submit it, so yeah.

I guess I have no problem stating a different price or timescale if the proposal is free to make, because there's not much to lose, it's more whether it's worth doing if you have to pay for it, and whether those clients who set unrealistic timescales or pay amounts are likely to choose proposals that are not as fast and/or cheap.

I'm getting the feeling though that the pay per proposal model is maybe not worth it.
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Veronica Montserrat
Veronica Montserrat
France
Local time: 10:58
Member (2020)
English to French
+ ...
No. Sep 25, 2020

D. Baker wrote:

My question is, in instances where you have to pay to submit a proposal to a client, do you bother to submit a proposal with a note saying that you will need much more time and/or money than they have stated in their requirements?

Thanks for reading.


It's a waste of your time. The client has its requirements and will find someone to do the job with these requirements, however good or bad the end quality.

Focus on clients with correct deadlines and pay instead.


Mr. Satan (X)
 
D. Baker
D. Baker
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:58
Japanese to English
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks! Sep 25, 2020

Thanks Veronica, you're right, I will steer clear in future!

 
Mr. Satan (X)
Mr. Satan (X)
English to Indonesian
Reasonable deadlines Sep 25, 2020

The deadline asked by the client has become one of my indicators to differentiate good clients from the bad ones. If the client gave a reasonable deadline, chances are s/he knows how the translation business work. Everything else should follow to the right direction.

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Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 10:58
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Mrs. Baker Sep 25, 2020

D. Baker wrote:
I went to submit a proposal for a job yesterday on proZ and it asked me to pay $1 to submit it, so yeah.


The ProZ.com FAQs need an overhaul -- information is sometimes hidden in unexpected places. I found it, though: https://www.proz.com/faq/3208#3208

As of 2020, non-members can quote on job offers using their wallet funds. The cost for quoting is 1U$D. It was announced in 2016 that, in the future, it may no longer be possible for non-members of the site to use cash to quote on jobs. In other words, the ability to reply to a job posting for which the specified contact method is to submit a quote through the site may become a members-only service. This change has not been implemented yet.

So, it's still possible to quote by paying.

Note that this is actually just an exception granted to people who do not have a regular paid ProZ.com subscription. If you have a paid ProZ.com subscription, quoting on jobs is included in the deal and you don't need to pay $1 extra.

It is unclear if this payment is required for all jobs or only for jobs that are otherwise restricted to paying members (job posters can choose to restrict the job to people with a paid ProZ.com subscription, if for example they believe that such translators are more likely to be "professionals"). Have you been able to quote on other ProZ.com jobs without paying?

I'm getting the feeling though that the pay per proposal model is maybe not worth it.


Well, $1 to put your name in front of a client isn't a bad deal. It's a business expense (a marketing expense, in fact). You have to decide how likely it is that the client will remember you for future jobs (even if you don't get the current job). I agree that it may look like a potential waste of money, especially if you're competing with dozens of other translators who are more likely to get the job.

Sometimes, you may be able to figure out who the client is without quoting, and then you can try to contact him directly to offer your services. You are allowed to do that.


 
Anton Konashenok
Anton Konashenok  Identity Verified
Czech Republic
Local time: 10:58
French to English
+ ...
What's unreasonable for one is reasonable for another Sep 25, 2020

Sometimes the prospective clients are indeed unaware of typical translator's performance, and there is no disgrace in educating them about it. Sometimes it's the opposite, they are more than aware that top-flight translators can manage it, but average ones can't.

If I have to work for 20 hours non-stop to deliver the job on time, I will just quote a price at which it is worth to me - take it or leave it.

On the other hand, the pay-per-proposal system is indeed flawed,
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Sometimes the prospective clients are indeed unaware of typical translator's performance, and there is no disgrace in educating them about it. Sometimes it's the opposite, they are more than aware that top-flight translators can manage it, but average ones can't.

If I have to work for 20 hours non-stop to deliver the job on time, I will just quote a price at which it is worth to me - take it or leave it.

On the other hand, the pay-per-proposal system is indeed flawed, but here on ProZ it can be useful to separate the wheat from the chaff: the very best clients who are well-aware of the market and want to get the best tend to publish offers that are free to respond to ("contact us by e-mail") and are not restricted to paying members.
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Darius Sciuka
IrinaN
 
Mr. Satan (X)
Mr. Satan (X)
English to Indonesian
Maybe... Sep 26, 2020

Anton Konashenok wrote:

Sometimes the prospective clients are indeed unaware of typical translator's performance,

Sometimes it's the opposite, they are more than aware that top-flight translators can manage it, but average ones can't.


Indeed. They might know very well how much time a good translator would require to finish their project. But as I said, it's only one of several indicators I have learned for the past several months.

and there is no disgrace in educating them about it.


They might get offended, though.

If I have to work for 20 hours non-stop to deliver the job on time, I will just quote a price at which it is worth to me - take it or leave it.


Yeah, that's still reasonable enough. It's nothing like "Hey, you, finish this in 2 hours pronto. I don't care if you just worked on a project all day and about to sleep. I'm not waiting until tomorrow morning, pal. Chop chop!"


 
Dan Lucas
Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 09:58
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Your problems are not the client's problem Sep 28, 2020

Novian Cahyadi wrote:
It's nothing like "Hey, you, finish this in 2 hours pronto. I don't care if you just worked on a project all day and about to sleep. I'm not waiting until tomorrow morning, pal. Chop chop!"

In business you either say yes or no, and whether you are tired, or sleep-deprived, or unwell, or unhappy is not the concern of clients. If you say yes, you have a responsibility to complete the job to the best of your ability. If you can't or won't take it on, just say no - it's your choice.

To be clear, I don't think translators should work with bad clients, but the point is that freelancers do have a choice. We have agency. We decide. Clients cannot force work on us. If we struggle with difficult job conditions, it's because we accepted them of our own free will.

Dan


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Mr. Satan (X)
Mr. Satan (X)
English to Indonesian
Once upon a time... Sep 30, 2020

Dan Lucas wrote:

In business you either say yes or no, and whether you are tired, or sleep-deprived, or unwell, or unhappy is not the concern of clients. If you say yes, you have a responsibility to complete the job to the best of your ability. If you can't or won't take it on, just say no - it's your choice.


So here's a little story.

I just finished a project from my client. I still got some time left before I hit the bed, so I browsed for jobs and saw one that I was interested in. Since I had nothing to do the next day, I figured, well... why not? It should take the client some time to review my proposal. So I expected to get a reply at least in the morning.

I got a reply within minutes, and there was never any discussion about the rates, scheduling, terminologies, nothing. I was just being told to finish it ASAP. The file itself was also a low resolution photo of the document. I couldn't load it in a CAT tool, which would've made things faster for me. Not with some magic.

I suppose that you are right. I should've declined. But I was so green back then, so I was reluctant to say no.

Also, I agree that our condition is none of the client's concern. That was exactly why I didn't reject the job and accepted it anyway. But at least have some discussion first beforehand, will ya? We need to be on the same page if we want to conduct a working business relationship.


 


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Applying for jobs with ridiculous pay/timescales







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