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Translator must live in the USA (Or Spain or the UK etc). Why?
Thread poster: Jerold Stamp
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 18:00
SITE FOUNDER
The feature saves everyone time. Oct 19, 2001

We added the \"bidders must live in...\" option about 6 months after the site went online, in response to the following incident:



A Canadian company posted an ItalianEnglish job that said, within the body of the text, something to the effect that \"translator must be in Canada.\"



A translator in Italy got notification of the job mailed to her, and fired off a harsh (and profane) letter to the outsourcer chastising her for her discrimination. The outsourc
... See more
We added the \"bidders must live in...\" option about 6 months after the site went online, in response to the following incident:



A Canadian company posted an ItalianEnglish job that said, within the body of the text, something to the effect that \"translator must be in Canada.\"



A translator in Italy got notification of the job mailed to her, and fired off a harsh (and profane) letter to the outsourcer chastising her for her discrimination. The outsourcer wrote to me to complain about this harassment.



I investigated that matter with both sides. As it turns out, the client was constrained by her accounting department\'s policy of only qualifying local translation service providers. She had no choice with regard to country of the bidder, and by putting in the note, she was only attempting to save bidders in other countries wasted time. She actually felt guilty that people who were not in Canada were spending time applying.



When I explained this to the translator in Italy, she apologized to both the outsourcer and I for her email. However, I could understand her frustation, and I felt the ProZ.com system was partially to blame--why should she and others be sent notice of a job that she had no chance of winning? I felt it was ProZ.com responsibility to save everyone time in cases where the country of the translator was already determined.



Whether or not this country feature is abused for various purposes, I don\'t know.

But lets give the outsourcers some credit.

Most are aware of the advantages of opening a job up to a wider pool of translators. If they choose not to do so, it is fair to assume that they have good reason.



For example, it is easy to imagine cases where country limitations are understandable:

- \"Inhouse translator needed, 2 hours, 3 days per week.\"

- \"Interpreter needed in New Orleans tomorrow.\"

etc., etc.
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Jerold Stamp
Jerold Stamp  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 23:00
Member (2002)
Italian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Oct 19, 2001

Quote:


On 2001-10-19 12:53, Henry wrote:



Whether or not this country feature is abused for various purposes, I don\'t know.

But lets give the outsourcers some credit.

Most are aware of the advantages of opening a job up to a wider pool of translators. If they choose not to do so, it is fair to assume that they have good reason.



For example, it is easy to imagine cases where countr... See more
Quote:


On 2001-10-19 12:53, Henry wrote:



Whether or not this country feature is abused for various purposes, I don\'t know.

But lets give the outsourcers some credit.

Most are aware of the advantages of opening a job up to a wider pool of translators. If they choose not to do so, it is fair to assume that they have good reason.



For example, it is easy to imagine cases where country limitations are understandable:

- \"Inhouse translator needed, 2 hours, 3 days per week.\"

- \"Interpreter needed in New Orleans tomorrow.\"

etc., etc.



Dear Henry,



When I first brought up the topic, I didn’t know that a \"bidders must live in...\" option existed in the job posting system. It was an unexplainable business practice and I hypothesized that it was due to legal and liability concerns of the agencies if things went wrong. Nobody seemed to think that this was the cause; some thought it was a way to accomplish regional language variation discrimination, and Jacek suggested practical logistical reasons, which is close to what you’re saying.

The reason that I was concerned about the problem in the first place is because I’m making an effort to penetrate into the US and UK markets. I’ve seen those discouraging words too many times for some beautiful jobs and I was dying to know the reason why.

After reading about the incident with the Canadian firm that you mentioned I’m sure you wouldn’t be keen about removing the option. After having met you in Tuscany and hiving witnessed your sincerity and enthusiasm for Proz, I have no doubt about your integrity. None whatsoever. Your credentials are impressive as well. One doesn’t get into or out of Massachusetts Institute of Technology unless he is brilliant. My point is that your I and many others trust that you know how best to define Proz service offer. I myself have made many customers from the site. So thanks for that.



After all the discussion above, I wouldn’t want you to think that I was “blaming” you for the problem. I can now understand how a company having a good reason to limit his service provider base can appreciate the option, and sure, in these cases, it would also save time.

I wouldn’t, however want to assume that all reasons are good reasons (I certainly didn’t when I asked the question). As you suggest, I will give outsourcers some credit, but I won’t give them complete credit. What I mean is companies sometimes make decision based on “business practice” or because they see others or their competition doing it, etc. They may be selecting an option that simply “satisfices” their need yet may not actually be their best choice. To alleviate the perceived problem, perhaps it might help to put guidelines on the bidding form margin advising outsourcers of when they should and should not limit their service provider base. I always read those guidelines in the site, they’re short, well written, useful and to the point.



Thanks for responding, trusting in your judgement, please accept my most friendly salutations from Italy.



Pace e bene

Beato te che ancora può giocare Hockey!

Anxiously awaiting for the next convention.



Jerry

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Dora O'Malley
Dora O'Malley  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:00
Member (2003)
English to Spanish
+ ...
search for Proz may be more useful with some changes Oct 20, 2001

Another issue that may be somehow related and I believe is much more important: Proz identifies the translator by the country where he or she is living. I am a native speaker of Spanish but now I live in the USA. It would be more useful for my potential customers to see: Spanish (Argentina-USA) or Spanish (Latin America-USA) rather than USA only (so that they do not think that my first language is English because of the country I live in or because of my name).

If you go to the “s
... See more
Another issue that may be somehow related and I believe is much more important: Proz identifies the translator by the country where he or she is living. I am a native speaker of Spanish but now I live in the USA. It would be more useful for my potential customers to see: Spanish (Argentina-USA) or Spanish (Latin America-USA) rather than USA only (so that they do not think that my first language is English because of the country I live in or because of my name).

If you go to the “search for a pro” section, your options are to write the source and target languages but when the list comes up, it only indicates the country of residence. Customers do not always realize that a good translator may live in any country if he or she keeps researching, studying and comparing the languages. It would be very helpful to indicate where you come from or your native language. I do not see the point of this certification if I was born, raised and educated at all levels in my country and obtained a university degree in translation.

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Jerold Stamp
Jerold Stamp  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 23:00
Member (2002)
Italian to English
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TOPIC STARTER
Dora, Maybe Native Language certification is for you Oct 20, 2001

It does consider dialect (at least for English) in it\'s description. People are arguing whether or not it\'s useful on another topic discussion. You might want to refer to that topic.

It seems too that you are agreeing with me that the \"Translators must live in ...\" option is not a good fail-safe way to discriminate among the various regional varieties or dialects of a language because many of us are expatriates. It does consider dialect (at least for English) in it\'s descripti
... See more
It does consider dialect (at least for English) in it\'s description. People are arguing whether or not it\'s useful on another topic discussion. You might want to refer to that topic.

It seems too that you are agreeing with me that the \"Translators must live in ...\" option is not a good fail-safe way to discriminate among the various regional varieties or dialects of a language because many of us are expatriates. It does consider dialect (at least for English) in it\'s description. People are arguing whether or not it\'s useful on another topic discussion. You might want to refer to that topic listing.

It seems too that you are agreeing with me that the \"Translators must live in ...\" option is not a good fail-safe way to discriminate among the various regional varieties or dialects of a language because many of us are expatriates (if indeed it is being used for that reason).

Henry suggests that for the most part, it’s used for good reasons, which I would call logistical reasons and he makes a good point sometimes local translators (or interpreters) are needed.

It will be interesting to see how things evolve.

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Dora O'Malley
Dora O'Malley  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 17:00
Member (2003)
English to Spanish
+ ...
the two issues are related Oct 20, 2001

I think that both issues are related since they have to do with the information provided to customers.

 
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Nikki Scott-Despaigne  Identity Verified
Local time: 23:00
French to English
One reason for retaining the option Oct 21, 2001

Clients ask for it, for one or all of the reasons put forward!

 
Jerold Stamp
Jerold Stamp  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 23:00
Member (2002)
Italian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Not one or all of the reasons Nikki, only one of the reasons above is valid Oct 21, 2001

Quote:


On 2001-10-21 03:46, nikscot wrote:

Clients ask for it, for one or all of the reasons put forward!





I disagree with you Nikki when you say \"one or all\"- I\'ve argued that only one good reason so far has been set forth, that for logistical purposes (i.e. the meeting is to be held in Houston, why let an interpreter from Australia waste his time applying). Trying to discern the linguisti... See more
Quote:


On 2001-10-21 03:46, nikscot wrote:

Clients ask for it, for one or all of the reasons put forward!





I disagree with you Nikki when you say \"one or all\"- I\'ve argued that only one good reason so far has been set forth, that for logistical purposes (i.e. the meeting is to be held in Houston, why let an interpreter from Australia waste his time applying). Trying to discern the linguistic dialects or variations by saying that the \"translator must live in...\" leaves out the expatriates (like myself) and is fundamentally flawed.



Sure, from a marketing point of view we want to give the customer what he wants and if he wants XXX lets give him XXX. He wants the option lets give it to him.



I\'m looking at the problem from a market efficiency point of view. I\'ve seen translation jobs, not interpreting jobs, translation jobs from my own country, USA, requiring the translator to live in USA. A market, when it starts limiting supply or demand generally becomes less efficient. In this case, being part of the supply, it also has an effect on my income.



Now I\'m personally trying hard to work with US companies because, on the whole they pay well and 30 to 60 days sooner than my regular customer base. Some of the jobs offered have been large jobs and regarded material where I have a distinctive advantage over many other translators because they involved my area of professional specialization. For these cases, I haven’t been able to image any advantage for limiting the translator pool only to translators in the US, (why not include those from Canada for that matter).

Thus I hypothesized they do it for legal reasons, and that\'s why asked the question in the first place.



To come back and say \"all\" the reasons above are good goes against why I\'ve been arguing against all along here.



I can understand logistical reasons. If there are other reasons, whethr they are good reasons or not, what are they? Perhaps some outsourcers may have some good answers.



What do you think?















[ This Message was edited by: on 2001-10-21 06:11 ]Collapse


 
Lincoln Hui
Lincoln Hui  Identity Verified
Hong Kong
Local time: 06:00
Member
Chinese to English
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Compliance/legal Jan 31, 2021

I imagine many of them are projects that are involved with US government agencies in one way or another. This seems to be very US-specific and I doubt it has anything to do with native language or localization.

 
IrinaN
IrinaN
United States
Local time: 17:00
English to Russian
+ ...
US situation Jan 31, 2021

1. Outsourcing of any government-funded projects abroad, even non-classified, such as education, for example, is strictly prohibited, and every government contractor has to jump 1000 hoops to explain why he couldn't find the required vendor within the US borders. They must submit full list of vendors to the government. No one in the right mind would mess with it.

I have to confirm to one of my old clients that I am physically in the US territory at the moment before they would send
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1. Outsourcing of any government-funded projects abroad, even non-classified, such as education, for example, is strictly prohibited, and every government contractor has to jump 1000 hoops to explain why he couldn't find the required vendor within the US borders. They must submit full list of vendors to the government. No one in the right mind would mess with it.

I have to confirm to one of my old clients that I am physically in the US territory at the moment before they would send me certain files via the email that they created for me, or give an access to the folder on FTP. Same goes for any teleconferences, audio or video. I can't do any from Russia or Vanuatu.

2. In current economic situation, support of local economies is the most natural thing. The abundance of local supply (translators) far exceeds the demand, especially in not so exotic pairs.

Maybe some just don't want to take any extra risks with overseas translators getting lost, constantly complaining about time differences, local holidays etc. Europeans are obsessed with business hours vs evenings/weekends (human rights, I'd guess:-), Americans work when work is available:-). I remember how mad the US delegation was after their first business trip to Italy on space matters. In Italian minds, the agenda was barely doable in a month, for Americans it was a normal, maybe slightly compressed week:-). Not much was accomplished on that trip:-).

If I were a PM, I'd just tell myself: "Why bother? I've got tons of headache sources as it it already." Possible payment/fee problems etc etc. Extra flag for IRS, complicated tax returns. It's just plain inconvenient. No one in the US will hold you legally responsible when you stick with local vendors and decline all others. Equal opportunity laws do not apply, the rest is up to the business owner, especially in the "employment at will" states. Actually, maybe they will apply should you employ a foreigner and a local unemployed or underemployed person with the same qualifications will find out.

No need to explain certain exceptions:-) But who runs business on exceptions??
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P.L.F. Persio
 
Adieu
Adieu  Identity Verified
Ukrainian to English
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Some will be flexible Feb 2, 2021

From past personal experience on the recruiting side, I've attempted to hire locals for ease of communication and payment, yet ended up hiring other time zones and other continents that applied instead.

I did use a single paragraph test to apply that made things a lot clearer on who to deal with, so when the locals were dodgy, I went with the good foreign ones.

Sometimes it's as simple as an in-house translator doing the screening, but wishing to hand it off ASAP to a l
... See more
From past personal experience on the recruiting side, I've attempted to hire locals for ease of communication and payment, yet ended up hiring other time zones and other continents that applied instead.

I did use a single paragraph test to apply that made things a lot clearer on who to deal with, so when the locals were dodgy, I went with the good foreign ones.

Sometimes it's as simple as an in-house translator doing the screening, but wishing to hand it off ASAP to a local office manager with no experience in translation management. They can usually be trusted to figure out communication and payment with domestic translators, but may need lots of handholding and guidance for international contractors.


PS I am no longer in any in-house position and have not recruited anyone for anything in many years, so don't contact me about job opportunities, I have none to offer.

[Edited at 2021-02-02 15:16 GMT]
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Translator must live in the USA (Or Spain or the UK etc). Why?







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