| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Too many secrets (What if there are too many translation agencies?) Thread poster: Mario Chavez (X)
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| Agree, but... | Dec 22, 2017 |
Robert Forstag wrote: Daryo wrote:
So - no, I don't find anything strange in service providers complaining that there are too many self-serving middlemen [all too often doing a disservice to both sides they are supposed to be bringing together]. This is exactly right. Such parties frequently charge a high markup to their end clients for what is often nothing more than acting as brokers, and whatever value they might claim to add (mainly proofing and formatting) could be handled by qualified professionals a good deal more economically without the involvement of middlemen.
I agree with you (both), but (unfortunately) it seems some (many) end clients prefer not to have to manage translation/localization efforts internally, in favor of "turnkey" services, with the agency handling the whole process, from translators selection to delivery. That is (in theory) the value they add...
Then you hear stories about agencies (supposedly) offering TEP at rates as low as $.12 psw and their clients complaining about bad quality and you have to wonder...
| | | | Dan Lucas 
United Kingdom
Local time: 10:25
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
| Sales is often the hard part | Dec 22, 2017 |
Chris S wrote:
The agencies just drum up work from buyers
"Just"? Would that it were so easy! Let's give sales its due as a (the?) fundamental business activity. If you can't persuade clients to use you, all the quality and technical ability in the world will mean nothing, because they will never be used.
Dan
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 05:25
Spanish to English
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| There is a place for agencies, but.., | Dec 22, 2017 |
Texte Style wrote:
Remember though, that even the worst of agencies will relieve their clients of the hassle of looking for several different translators. If the client only has occasional, small texts to be translated, and only into one or two languages, they don't need an agency. But those who have their files translated into several languages, or who have so much to be translated that the project needs to be split among several translators, will find it easier to offload the whole thing to an agency than start contacting several different translators.
No arguments here. As I indicated in my response to Tomás, I think that projects of the kind you describe are precisely where agencies are needed. But what of the 97% of translation projects that do not fall into this category?
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 05:25
Spanish to English
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| Chimerical quality control | Dec 22, 2017 |
Mirko Mainardi wrote: Robert Forstag wrote: Daryo wrote:
So - no, I don't find anything strange in service providers complaining that there are too many self-serving middlemen [all too often doing a disservice to both sides they are supposed to be bringing together]. This is exactly right. Such parties frequently charge a high markup to their end clients for what is often nothing more than acting as brokers, and whatever value they might claim to add (mainly proofing and formatting) could be handled by qualified professionals a good deal more economically without the involvement of middlemen. I agree with you (both), but (unfortunately) it seems some (many) end clients prefer not to have to manage translation/localization efforts internally, in favor of "turnkey" services, with the agency handling the whole process, from translators selection to delivery. That is (in theory) the value they add... Then you hear stories about agencies (supposedly) offering TEP at rates as low as $.12 psw and their clients complaining about bad quality and you have to wonder...
The “quality control” function that you allude to, and that agencies supposedly provide, strikes me as something of a chimera. Agencies include translators in their databases on the basis of a combination of formal credentials and experience, and perhaps also their performance on a short “test translation.”
How would a direct client selecting a translator on the basis of the same (verifiable) criteria provide less of a guarantee of satisfactory performance on a given project? Is a markup up of 50% to 75%, or perhaps more, worth it to the end client for such “project management” when the project in question is not massive or complex in nature?
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Mario Chavez (X)
Local time: 05:25
English to Spanish
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TOPIC STARTER | Do we have the numbers to back up those percentages? | Dec 22, 2017 |
I see, once again, that valid arguments end up hamstrung by percentages. Do we have the numbers to back those up? If I say “most agencies charge a 50%-70% markup on my translations” do I know that for sure, or am I pulling percentages out of…my hat?
Of all the agencies I've worked in more than two decades, only one has shown me (inadvertently so) how much they're actually charging for a translation I quoted to them. How do I know? They forwarded that oh-so-confidential email t... See more I see, once again, that valid arguments end up hamstrung by percentages. Do we have the numbers to back those up? If I say “most agencies charge a 50%-70% markup on my translations” do I know that for sure, or am I pulling percentages out of…my hat?
Of all the agencies I've worked in more than two decades, only one has shown me (inadvertently so) how much they're actually charging for a translation I quoted to them. How do I know? They forwarded that oh-so-confidential email to me by accident. It happens once or twice a year, but I just chuckle at it.
I don't have an example in front of me right now, but this particular long-time client does not have a 50%-70% markup.
On my end, and based on my observations, I can only say that some agencies do this and some agencies do that. I don't have percentages to show, sorry. ▲ Collapse
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Robert Forstag wrote: Texte Style wrote:
Remember though, that even the worst of agencies will relieve their clients of the hassle of looking for several different translators. If the client only has occasional, small texts to be translated, and only into one or two languages, they don't need an agency. But those who have their files translated into several languages, or who have so much to be translated that the project needs to be split among several translators, will find it easier to offload the whole thing to an agency than start contacting several different translators. No arguments here. As I indicated in my response to Tomás, I think that projects of the kind you describe are precisely where agencies are needed. But what of the 97% of translation projects that do not fall into this category?
Where do you take this number from? Big clients produce an enormous content output and need this translated into multiple languages. I have no idea about the overall number but I would say that 90% of my own translation work is content that will be translated to other languages as well.
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 05:25
Spanish to English
+ ...
| In the end, markup percentages do not matter | Dec 22, 2017 |
Mario Chavez wrote:
I see, once again, that valid arguments end up hamstrung by percentages. Do we have the numbers to back those up? If I say “most agencies charge a 50%-70% markup on my translations” do I know that for sure, or am I pulling percentages out of…my hat?
Of all the agencies I've worked in more than two decades, only one has shown me (inadvertently so) how much they're actually charging for a translation I quoted to them. How do I know? They forwarded that oh-so-confidential email to me by accident. It happens once or twice a year, but I just chuckle at it.
I don't have an example in front of me right now, but this particular long-time client does not have a 50%-70% markup.
On my end, and based on my observations, I can only say that some agencies do this and some agencies do that. I don't have percentages to show, sorry.
Nope, no comprehensive statistics, I must confess. But I do know for a fact that one “top-ten” agency does habitually charge markups ranging from 50% to 100%. Other translators report similar markup percentages, and I reasonably assume that at least some of that information is not false.
But we do not need to make any assumptions regarding markup in order to validate the points that I and others (including you) have made in this thread. Let’s in fact assume for the sake of argument that the markups are far more modest (say, in the range of 15 to 30 percent). The point is that, for translators who received regular work in the $0.10 to $0.14/word range five years ago, but who now habitually receive offers in the $0.05 to $0.08 range, working mainly for agencies is a modus operandi THAT DOESN’T WORK ANYMORE.
A tipping point has been reached for many translators and, as you have rightly suggested, other solutions need to be found.
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 05:25
Spanish to English
+ ...
| I was speaking in terms of projects, and not volume | Dec 22, 2017 |
Kay-Viktor Stegemann wrote: Robert Forstag wrote: Texte Style wrote:
Remember though, that even the worst of agencies will relieve their clients of the hassle of looking for several different translators. If the client only has occasional, small texts to be translated, and only into one or two languages, they don't need an agency. But those who have their files translated into several languages, or who have so much to be translated that the project needs to be split among several translators, will find it easier to offload the whole thing to an agency than start contacting several different translators. No arguments here. As I indicated in my response to Tomás, I think that projects of the kind you describe are precisely where agencies are needed. But what of the 97% of translation projects that do not fall into this category? Where do you take this number from? Big clients produce an enormous content output and need this translated into multiple languages. I have no idea about the overall number but I would say that 90% of my own translation work is content that will be translated to other languages as well.
In other words, both a birth certificate and a 500-page manual that needs to be translated into 30 different languages each count as one project.
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Robert Forstag wrote: Kay-Viktor Stegemann wrote:
Where do you take this number from? Big clients produce an enormous content output and need this translated into multiple languages. I have no idea about the overall number but I would say that 90% of my own translation work is content that will be translated to other languages as well. In other words, both a birth certificate and a 500-page manual that needs to be translated into 30 different languages each count as one project.
Even then. Projects like 500 page manuals are rather rare, in most cases content comes in much smaller sizes, like product or service descriptions, marketing copy, content pages, news emails, voiceover scripts, software strings, event announcements, tweets, timetables ... a continuous flow of content that is not only translated into multiple languages, but often also translated more than once, because the content has to be updated when prices, conditions, laws, weather or whatever changes.
That's the kind of work that comprises 90% of my translating time, and I could not begin to imagine to organize all this myself. You need agencies for this, and I don't begrudge them a single cent they earn as long as I get my word rate.
| | | | Mario Chavez (X)
Local time: 05:25
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Percentages II | Dec 22, 2017 |
So now markup percentages do not matter. Why bring them up then if they're so inconsequential to the discussion?
Not even us translators are free from the disease of “use percentages to sound serious.” Food for thought.
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 05:25
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Seems disingenuous | Dec 22, 2017 |
Mario Chavez wrote:
So now markup percentages do not matter. Why bring them up then if they're so inconsequential to the discussion?
Not even us translators are free from the disease of “use percentages to sound serious.” Food for thought.
More like overdosing on a foul-tasting laxative, I would say.
Of course markup percentages matter. What does not matter - and what ought to have been evident to anyone not committed to a literal interpretation of my post, or feigning such an understanding - are the particular numbers.
Coming from someone who has recently criticized others (on several different occasions) for their “literalism,” the above comments are surprising.
What we know is that, 1.) thousands of translation agencies, both big and small, currently exist; 2.) given that they exist, it can be assumed that in most cases, these outfits are making a significant profit (surely the majority are not at the point of going belly-up); 3.) many of these concerns function as little more than brokers; and 4.) the rates offered by such agencies, in the aggregate, and in the main language combinations, have tended to fall in both real and absolute terms over the past 7 years.
The thousands of translators who have personally experienced these phenomena do not need to await the publication of official statistics to know that something is terribly wrong, and that a big part of this “something” has to do with the role of agencies. You yourself declared, both here and in another recent thread, that there are too many agencies. No one chided you for not backing up your claim with statistics because, for most of us in tune with what is going on, such an assertion is self-evident.
That there are grounds for questioning the role of these agencies in the ever-downward plunge of rates ought to be similarly self-evident.
| | | | Mario Chavez (X)
Local time: 05:25
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Keep on point | Dec 22, 2017 |
Robert Forstag wrote: Mario Chavez wrote:
So now markup percentages do not matter. Why bring them up then if they're so inconsequential to the discussion?
Not even us translators are free from the disease of “use percentages to sound serious.” Food for thought. More like overdosing on a foul-tasting laxative, I would say. Of course markup percentages matter. What does not matter - and what ought to have been evident to anyone not committed to a literal interpretation of my post, or feigning such an understanding - are the particular numbers. Coming from someone who has recently criticized others (on several different occasions) for their “literalism,” the above comments are surprising. What we know is that, 1.) thousands of translation agencies, both big and small, currently exist; 2.) given that they exist, it can be assumed that in most cases, these outfits are making a significant profit (surely the majority are not at the point of going belly-up); 3.) many of these concerns function as little more than brokers; and 4.) the rates offered by such agencies, in the aggregate, and in the main language combinations, have tended to fall in both real and absolute terms over the past 7 years. The thousands of translators who have personally experienced these phenomena do not need to await the publication of official statistics to know that something is terribly wrong, and that a big part of this “something” has to do with the role of agencies. You yourself declared, both here and in another recent thread, that there are too many agencies. No one chided you for not backing up your claim with statistics because, for most of us in tune with what is going on, such an assertion is self-evident. That there are grounds for questioning the role of these agencies in the ever-downward plunge of rates ought to be similarly self-evident.
Robert,
Have the courtesy of leaving your personal attacks outside of the discussion.
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Just a couple examples based on publicly available data from 2 "paper pusher" "online translation services":
1) $.035(!) paid to translators, $.06 charged to end clients. That's a 71% markup.
2) $.054(!) paid to translators, $.084 charged to end clients. That's a 64% markup.
Both services have been around for a long while now (and there are many others like them), so I guess there are people who're happy to work at those rates and clients who're happy with what th... See more Just a couple examples based on publicly available data from 2 "paper pusher" "online translation services":
1) $.035(!) paid to translators, $.06 charged to end clients. That's a 71% markup.
2) $.054(!) paid to translators, $.084 charged to end clients. That's a 64% markup.
Both services have been around for a long while now (and there are many others like them), so I guess there are people who're happy to work at those rates and clients who're happy with what they get for that price. And, as I was saying, those are just "paper pusher" services. No real added value for the end client (aside for the dirt cheap rates)...
And BTW, the abysmal rates to translators I mentioned above are sadly in line with many "budgets" or "offers" you see on this platform... ▲ Collapse
| | | | Robert Forstag
United States
Local time: 05:25
Spanish to English
+ ...
Mario Chavez wrote: Robert Forstag wrote: Mario Chavez wrote:
So now markup percentages do not matter. Why bring them up then if they're so inconsequential to the discussion?
Not even us translators are free from the disease of “use percentages to sound serious.” Food for thought. More like overdosing on a foul-tasting laxative, I would say. Of course markup percentages matter. What does not matter - and what ought to have been evident to anyone not committed to a literal interpretation of my post, or feigning such an understanding - are the particular numbers. Coming from someone who has recently criticized others (on several different occasions) for their “literalism,” the above comments are surprising. What we know is that, 1.) thousands of translation agencies, both big and small, currently exist; 2.) given that they exist, it can be assumed that in most cases, these outfits are making a significant profit (surely the majority are not at the point of going belly-up); 3.) many of these concerns function as little more than brokers; and 4.) the rates offered by such agencies, in the aggregate, and in the main language combinations, have tended to fall in both real and absolute terms over the past 7 years. The thousands of translators who have personally experienced these phenomena do not need to await the publication of official statistics to know that something is terribly wrong, and that a big part of this “something” has to do with the role of agencies. You yourself declared, both here and in another recent thread, that there are too many agencies. No one chided you for not backing up your claim with statistics because, for most of us in tune with what is going on, such an assertion is self-evident. That there are grounds for questioning the role of these agencies in the ever-downward plunge of rates ought to be similarly self-evident. Robert, Have the courtesy of leaving your personal attacks outside of the discussion.
Mario,
Where do you see evidence of a “personal attack” in my previous post?
Your recent criticism of others in these forums (including myself) for alleged “literalism” is verifiable. My pointing out that you engaged in the same behavior in your penultimate post in this thread is a defensible observation, and there was nothing ad hominem about it.
It is irresponsible to throw around accusations of personal attacks every time someone says something you really do not like, or reminds you of something that you said in the recent past within this very venue that calls into question what you are saying in the present.
[Edited at 2017-12-23 00:29 GMT]
| | | | | turning this around | Dec 23, 2017 |
Mirko Mainardi wrote:
Just a couple examples based on publicly available data from 2 "paper pusher" "online translation services":
1) $.035(!) paid to translators, $.06 charged to end clients. That's a 71% markup.
2) $.054(!) paid to translators, $.084 charged to end clients. That's a 64% markup. //
The "paid to translators" part should be changed to "charged by translators" since we are not employees, and we set our own fees. The agency charging its end client $0.06 would be incurring quite a loss, since they have to pay me almost three times as much. The emphasis has to be on what YOU charge, not on what they think they can pay you as your customer.
Turning this around. I have my fees, which I think are fair fees. I don't discriminate among my clients: the fees are set according to the work, not according to who it is for. If any agency can resell my work to their end client at $0.34/word, power to them! I'm still getting paid my fees that I set myself, and that is what matters to me.
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