 Track this topic | A témához tartozó oldalak: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | | Felhasználó | Téma indítója: Marinus Vesseur My first project in SDL Studio 2009 (Trados) |
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SDL Support 
Egyesült Királyság
Local time: 14:33
angol
| | Using Batch tasks to Update the Project Memory | Nov 4 |
Marinus Vesseur said:
Now the problem is that if you click "Finish" there is hard disk activity, but neither the TM nor the AutoSuggest dictionary appear updated - the date and size remain the same. When the process is finished there is NO result page. The window shows you NOTHING, except 0 errors, 0 messages. WHAT IS THIS? |
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Hi Marinus,
Your posts always make interesting reading. In this case I'm wondering why you would expect the memory to be updated? I imagine you have added to the Project TM as you translated so it will be updated already. The message of nothing confirms this because you had nothing to update.
If you were working as part of a Team, and had recieved a reviewed package back, then you would run this batch task and if any changes had been made to the translation then this would update your Project Translation Memory. Then in this case the message would have told you how many Units were updated.
I would also like to confirm that the AutoSuggest dictionary is not updated in this way. The creation of the AutoSuggest Dictionary is based on a statistical extraction of bilingual phrases from your TM. This is done to ensure that when you are using an ASD the suggestions are relevant and not simply a selection of all the words beginning with "Re" when you are typing "Read the fine manual" for example. This is also why there is a minimum requirement for 25,000 TU's because the extraction process requires this many at least to make the analysis statistically relevant. An update on the fly for this process would not make sense, and would also cause your PC to be continually processing. As Jerzy mentioned the best approach is to use termbases or AutoText if you want to add new words that you believe you will use a lot, or alternatively regenerate your ASD once a week. I do know a few translators who feel they get benefit from this and do work in this way.
Marinus Vesseur said:
What still does not work: Saving the Target file (a tag-ridden Word doc in this case), importing an aligned TMX and the aforementioned TM and dictionary batch updating. Plus a few minor GUI errors. |
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I would be very happy to take these issues up with you offline and see if we can help to discover the cause of the problems, if you are interested? Please feel free to drop me an email at pfilkin"at"sdl.com.
Regards
Paul
  | | | | Luca Ruella
Olaszország
Local time: 15:33
 Tag (2005 óta)
angol - olasz
+ ...
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My question: how do you want to implement two hundred ideas and keep the software simple at the same time? |
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In "The Simpsons", there is one episode where a car company hires Homer and says "you are the typical average american, tell us how to make the car of your dreams." Homer gives hundres of ideas and the car is produced.
The result is:
http://girtby.net/images/homer-car.gif
A mess of countless useless accessories and gadgets crammed in an unusable car.
Does it ring a bell? Raise your hand.
I mean, look at those option menu structures, with all those submenus and nested suboptions.
Where in the toolbar is the big large button saying "TM OPTIONS". Don't look for it, it's not there.
To manage the TMs I have to select: Tools\Options, scoll a dozen options, then expand Language pairs\All language pairs\Translation memory and automated translation.
A total of 5 clicks, with 4 clicks too many.
There's no excuse. A software company can't just accept 200 ideas, throw them at CAT tool and then, if the result make everybody confused, step back and say "not my fault, you asked for it".
They have to select the most desirable features and implement them in the most user friendly way. Don't ask me how you do that, it's not my job, I am a translator. I don't ask SDL engineers how to translate.
If there are dozens of people complaining that SDL Studio is overcomplicated (I'm one of them), then the effort should not be directed at explaining why they are wrong, but at making everything more straightforward.
As a translator, I feel that SDL Studio is aimed towards agency workflow: I couldn't care less to that kind of approach, it just makes my life more complicated, I am a translator. I don't care about creating a project and selecting TM languages, I just want the damn file translated.
[Edited at 2009-11-04 12:35 GMT]
| | | | Jerzy Czopik
Németország
Local time: 15:33
  Tag (2003 óta)
lengyel - német
+ ...
| | And then you come and scream "Where ist that option"... | Nov 4 |
Luca Ruella wrote:
My question: how do you want to implement two hundred ideas and keep the software simple at the same time? |
|
...
There's no excuse. A software company can't just accept 200 ideas, throw them at CAT tool and then, if the result make everybody confused, step back and say "not my fault, you asked for it".
They have to select the most desirable features and implement them in the most user friendly way. Don't ask me how you do that, it's not my job, I am a translator. I don't ask SDL engineers how to translate.
...
|
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What you do complain about are options, which you mostly do setup once.
When we talk about software, did you ever had a closer look at Microsoft Word? It has not 200, but I would say 2000 options... And all because they are needed.
And all of them have some default values - exactly as in case of Studio. If you do not wanna bother with options, you can work with default settings.
What we compare here (Word and Studio) are totally different products. While Word may remain very easy in its structure, as the only task of Word is creating documents in one format, Studio can't. It has to handle dozens of different formats and tasks.
Or, if I follow your idea, there should then be the "simple Studio", just for the translator, not able to do anything but translate (see: Transit Satellite). But then, as soon you start using it, you will miss those options.
Chosing necessary or unnecessary functions for a CAT should not be ony done by software engineers, but should follow the needs of translators. And when you look at ideas.sdltrados.com, you will see we still demand more features.
| | | | Stanislav Pokorny
Csehország
Local time: 15:33
angol - cseh
+ ...
| | I couldn't disagree more | Nov 4 |
| Luca wrote: Where in the toolbar is the big large button saying "TM OPTIONS". Don't look for it, it's not there. |
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Open the TM in the Translation Memory view and watch a nice button appearing in the top-right corner. It says "Translation Memory Settings". Is that what you are looking for? If I take your post literally, where is the big large button saying "FILE TYPES", where is the big large button saying "QA CHECKER 3.0", where is... All these options are located in the "Project Settings" dialog window and I don't find anything illogical about that.
I absolutely agree with Jerzy. What you are looking for is a sort of Satellite, or perhaps Starter Edition, where you simply receive a project, translate it and send it to your PM. No project creation possibilities, limited settings etc. etc. Well, this wouldn't be enough for me, but may be good enough for you if you don't have any direct clients. I guess that's a perspective thing. At any rate, you don't usually change the TM options during a translation project. You set them up in the "Create Project" wizard and the entire process is fully intuitive; at least for me it is.
BTW, if we're talking about complicated software, have you ever tried across?
[Upraveno: 2009-11-04 19:21 GMT]
| | | | Grzegorz Gryc
Lengyelország
Local time: 15:33
Tag (2005 óta)
francia - lengyel
+ ...
| | A rapid and incomplete response... | Nov 4 |
Jerzy Czopik wrote:
[...]
What you do complain about are options, which you mostly do setup once. |
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Now, I'm in a middle of a big project involving the fusion and recompilation of a lot of multilingual TMs and termbases.
For every TM created in Studio, I must set manually at least two options, i.e. Enable character based concordance search and The upgraded TM will be primarily used in mixed scenarios.
In a normal life, it's not very important but in this case, is a pain in the neck for me.
If T2009 could remember the last used settings...
Novertheless, I'm happy it's less painful than in Multiterm 
BTW.
The TM conversion error logging in Studio is great.
Cheers
GG
[Edited at 2009-11-04 19:54 GMT]
| | | | Stanislav Pokorny
Csehország
Local time: 15:33
angol - cseh
+ ...
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| If T2009 could remember the last used settings... |
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Agree.
| | | | Jerzy Czopik
Németország
Local time: 15:33
Tag (2003 óta)
lengyel - német
+ ...
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One more thing: the project approach.
I can't agree with the conclusion, that this is just something for agencies. This is what I thought some 5 or more years ago.
But now simply imagine you have to translate a Framemaker documentation, consisting of several small files. In "translators view" without a project you will have to open each file individually and individually pay attention to all correct settings (the right TM, the right termbase and so on). In Studio you just open them all in one project - and still you are not an agency, but just a freelancer.
But I agree with Stanislav, it might be an option offering a sort of Studio Basic, just for opening the stuff created and prepared by another people. Whatever sense it might have for someone, I couldn't use such software for any task we do. There are so many little difficulties when it comes to file preparation for my target language, that 90% of all project managers I know gladly handle those to us.
@GG: do you really need to repeat this operation for single TMs? Or could you run a batch conversion and use customized settings? TM upgrade has certainly not been designed to manage repeated and returning tasks, but just for the occasional upgrade process as in an "average" life, maybe such as mine Or does you cat hopping require that? Then you're certainly right, having an extra option for saving "TM upgrade project settings" would make your life a little bit less doggy
| | | | Marinus Vesseur
Kanada
Local time: 06:33
ProZ.com-tag
angol - holland
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | | Marinus in Wonderland | Nov 4 |
Hi Paul
Thanks for your reply and the detailed, clear explanations. Glad to have amused you, too. I'm a little less amused myself, most of the time, but I heard somewhere that it's better to laugh about your troubles (in Life of Brian, I think it was) and it works!
If I thought I was alone in this, I'd shut up, but I have a hunch that a few hundred if not thousands of colleagues of mine are going to be at least as overwhelmed and lost within Studio as I was - and still am.
True: it IS hard to put yourself in the shoes of the regular user and to have to cater to everyone's needs. On the other hand, you wouldn't be helped much if your Beta-testers were all computer-savvy kowtowers who hope for some tangible benefit through their enthusiastic support now, would you?
By the way: do you know that I would definitely have bought a support contract with a combo deal on Trados a long time ago, had it EVER been offered to me whilst buying the yearly upgrade? Once in a while you read about people who bought an upgrade with a support contract for, say, less than 200 dollars and I wonder: how did they get that? I suppose if I set my mind to it and searched for about half an hour, I could find it somewhere, but is that how it's supposed to work? Why don't I get ANY reply when I send SDL sales a mail via the website. I started believing I'm on your blacklist or something.
SDL Support wrote:
.. In this case I'm wondering why you would expect the memory to be updated? I imagine you have added to the Project TM as you translated so it will be updated already.
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Ehm, yes, well, in the beginning the TM did not update, so I was still assuming I had to 'finalize' or something like that to get TM, MultiTerm and ASD updated, and I understood "Updating the memory" to be a broader term, including all databases, since the next window shows me all of those in a list. My bad, I guess. But understandable, no?
| I would also like to confirm that the AutoSuggest dictionary is not updated in this way. |
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That is to be excused since AutoSuggest is new and is pretty neat even without the update-on-the-fly. But I hope you can see that it would be excellent if it WERE possible. New documents have new long words and names, especially in German and Dutch, and I hate having to type "Onderdelendatabase-editor" 60 times in a day. I know, Jerzy told me to use MultiTerm and/or Autotext, but I've been having issues with the reliability of MultiTerm and I don't know in advance how many times what long, compound words I'm going to encounter.
| I would be very happy to take these issues up with you offline and see if we can help to discover the cause of the problems, if you are interested? |
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I certainly would. Thanks!
Regards
| | | | Grzegorz Gryc
Lengyelország
Local time: 15:33
Tag (2005 óta)
francia - lengyel
+ ...
| | Stanislav Pokorny
Csehország
Local time: 15:33
angol - cseh
+ ...
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| Marinus wrote: By the way: do you know that I would definitely have bought a support contract with a combo deal on Trados a long time ago, had it EVER been offered to me whilst buying the yearly upgrade? Once in a while you read about people who bought an upgrade with a support contract for, say, less than 200 dollars and I wonder: how did they get that? I suppose if I set my mind to it and searched for about half an hour, I could find it somewhere, but is that how it's supposed to work? |
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Hi Marinus,
this is quite simple. Log into your profile on translationzone.com and click "My support" in the menu on the left-hand side.
In fact, it would definitely disturb me if I received dozens of e-mails from SDL reminding me to purchase a PSMA.
| | | | blomguib
Brazília
Local time: 12:33
Tag (2003 óta)
angol - flamand
+ ...
| | also frustrated and irritated | Nov 4 |
qualifying myself perfectly for the "computer for dummies" class, I cannot but agree with the tons of frustration and irritation that I have read in this thread.
I am a translator and a (civil) engineer, not a computer specialist. I haven´t got the slightest intention of going back to engineering school in order to be able to use a CAT.
I am just an ignorant technical translator and I need:
*) a system that is stable, irrespective of the other programs that are running
*) a system that doesn´t make other programs unstable
*) a system that is at least usable in a basic version without having followed a 3 day course (the 3 day course can be kept for getting to know the intricate parts....i.e. for the real specialists)
*) a system that can be easily installed or reinstalled for that matter, without running the risk of having a heart attack when having to reinstall everything 24 hours before a strict deadline, and running into licensing problems that shouldn´t exist in the first place
*) a system that produces understandable file structures in places where you expect them, so that you don´t have to spend hours trying to find back your work....because you forgot to check one of the boxes in one of the 1000 menus and submenus
*) a system that boasts an actual helpdesk and not a KB where you don´t find sh*t (try solving licensing problems as I recently did), without having to call all around the globe (I simply dread the next phone bill) before finding someone on the other side of the Atlantic who is actually friendly enough to solve a problem in a sec, a problem that shouldn´t have existed
*) a system that has a mail answering service that actually tries to solve problems instead of trying to sell you an upgrade, pretending that service contracts can only be purchased when upgrading....
*) a system that....
...
If I were to design some kindof algorithm for counting points based on the requirements I have squetched above, SDL would fare very bad indeed.....
I use it because some agencies simply require me to do so, but it is a nightmare, practically and financially....
Before starting a job with it, I am frustrated, irritated, nervous, making 20 back-ups including files for programs I have to use in conjunction with it......
When(or should I say if) I finish a job with it, I am even more frustrated, irritated, nervous, and often am glad I made the back-ups....
Very disappointed...and tired of glitches that aren´t really glitches but a product that is not living up to the expectations
| | | | Ralf Lemster
Németország
Local time: 15:33
Tag (2003 óta)
angol - német
+ ...
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Hi "blomguib",
There is a very simple solution to the issues you mention.
Before starting a job with it, I am frustrated, irritated, nervous, making 20 back-ups including files for programs I have to use in conjunction with it......
When(or should I say if) I finish a job with it, I am even more frustrated, irritated, nervous, and often am glad I made the back-ups....
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Don't use the software. Period.
Nobody can force you to use any particular software application - on the other hand, if those who are capable of using it gain in terms of efficiency, that's your problem. Your call.
Best regards,
Ralf
| | | | Jerzy Czopik
Németország
Local time: 15:33
Tag (2003 óta)
lengyel - német
+ ...
| | So why don't you test Studio? | Nov 4 |
blomguib wrote:
qualifying myself perfectly for the "computer for dummies" class, I cannot but agree with the tons of frustration and irritation that I have read in this thread.
I am a translator and a (civil) engineer, not a computer specialist. I haven´t got the slightest intention of going back to engineering school in order to be able to use a CAT.
I am just an ignorant technical translator and I need:
*) a system that is stable, irrespective of the other programs that are running |
|
Studio is. Running here on a desktop or on a laptopn, used for production and training.
And on a training machine the program is recofigured after each training. But stioll keeps working.
| *) a system that doesn´t make other programs unstable |
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Which programs are affected by Studio? In my case none... And this on all PCs, where I have Studio (for the time being these are 3).
| *) a system that is at least usable in a basic version without having followed a 3 day course (the 3 day course can be kept for getting to know the intricate parts....i.e. for the real specialists) |
|
Visit the "Home" page in Studio, press "Open file" and you're done. Without any courses. Just tell Studio where the file is. Then create a new TM on the fly and start translating. This is literally all.
| *) a system that can be easily installed or reinstalled for that matter, without running the risk of having a heart attack when having to reinstall everything 24 hours before a strict deadline, and running into licensing problems that shouldn´t exist in the first place |
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Well, there is I'm afraid no software in the world of PCs which would fulfill this request.
However, uninstalling Studio and installing it again worked for me certain times (I can't tell how many - more than 10 most certainly), because I started with the early beta and went through all stages of SP1, which needed to be deinstalled prior to installing the next beta...
| *) a system that produces understandable file structures in places where you expect them, so that you don´t have to spend hours trying to find back your work....because you forgot to check one of the boxes in one of the 1000 menus and submenus |
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If you are creating a project, you just have to select an output folder - then you'll find all the files you need there. If you simply open the file, all files are then located in the same folder as the source file, unless you say "Save target as" and point it to a different directory. Or said in different words: Studio keeps the folder structure you created, however intelligent it might be. Without having to go through any menus. Simply tell it where you wanna your project files, where the source files are and where do you wanna "Save them as target". I do not see any complication there.
| *) a system that boasts an actual helpdesk and not a KB where you don´t find sh*t (try solving licensing problems as I recently did), without having to call all around the globe (I simply dread the next phone bill) before finding someone on the other side of the Atlantic who is actually friendly enough to solve a problem in a sec, a problem that shouldn´t have existed |
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OK, point taken. When I have had problems, I was supported by human beings at SDL help desk. Maybe because I purchased the support contract? When I need help for any Microsoft product, I have to call a support line, which is not cost-free. So in fact I do not see a major difference here.
| *) a system that has a mail answering service that actually tries to solve problems instead of trying to sell you an upgrade, pretending that service contracts can only be purchased when upgrading.... |
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Can you imagine what would that mean? The software wouldn't be payable anymore...
This is a very good point. So when you get your dream system, it will not have 1000 menus, but just 5. But then why 5, maybe 10 are better... Or what?
If I were to design some kindof algorithm for counting points based on the requirements I have squetched above, SDL would fare very bad indeed.....
I use it because some agencies simply require me to do so, but it is a nightmare, practically and financially....
Before starting a job with it, I am frustrated, irritated, nervous, making 20 back-ups including files for programs I have to use in conjunction with it......
When(or should I say if) I finish a job with it, I am even more frustrated, irritated, nervous, and often am glad I made the back-ups....
Very disappointed...and tired of glitches that aren´t really glitches but a product that is not living up to the expectations |
|
Well, when I start a project I simply tell the program, that my project is to be saved in a folder I just created on my HDD especially for that purpose. Then I tell the program the language pair(s), where the source files are and which TM(s) is(are) to be used. And that can be all if you want.
I am also not a computer expert. Just a user, who uses a PC since 20 years now. And I grew up with DOS, Win3.1, Win95... Beside that I also have a Mac with OS 9 and OS X. My all experience is coming from using those machines and tools, which have beed´n required over the years. This includes Word 4 for DOS, WordPerfect or Corel Ventura... I also used Transit, SDLX, Across or MemoQ lately. If you tell me, I have to use Wordfast from tomorrow I will. Or InDesign - in fact I actively use InDesign CS3. But I'm not an expert in any of these tools. If you would ask me to create a newspaper in QuarkXPress I would not manage to do that. However, if the task is to translate it and deliver back in QXP format I gladly start working. Makes no big difference, if you use Quark or Framemaker. MemoQ or Studio... But it makes a huge difference to teach SDL Trados 2007 and SDL Trados Studio. While Trados 2007 was sometimes really hard to explain, Studio comes easy. No Cleanup for example. And thus no necessity to explain people, why TagEditor does not need any Cleanup at all and the "Cleanup" should be renamed to "Upgrade TM"...
Well, sorry for posting so long. And please do not feel offended, as I do not intend to offend anyone.
[Edited at 2009-11-04 21:31 GMT]
| | | | Jerzy Czopik
Németország
Local time: 15:33
Tag (2003 óta)
lengyel - német
+ ...
| | I'm definitely trying to improve things | Nov 4 |
So starting with myself, I always try to improve and learn.
What I learned now is to accept facts.
Not opinions, but facts.
But in turn I am also telling facts.
And one of those is, that Studio in it's initial release was not stable at all.
Then SP1 has been released. It is stable. To get it stable, a big team of SDL and beta-testers has been working on that for many weeks. This included on my side many deinstallations and reinstallations without any license issues. This is my fact. And as I do not use Dragon, Studio did also not destabilize any programs here. But if it would have done, I'm quite certain I'd either deinstall it permanently or SDL would have found a solution for that. I remember once having installed McAffee as Internet security software. It had destabilised my PC, so it took rid of it - no support contract there, no real help, no chance and another security program made the game. So point taken on that.
Being part of the beta test team was my way to contribute to improve the product.
If you want to contribute, visit ideas.sdltrados.com and vote for ideas or promote your own. This is also a very good and constructive way to improve. And when you then see, that your idea has been accepted and will be brought with some future releases, you really can feel you improved something. This is at least how I do understand that.
And... I live in Germany, but was born in Poland. The attitude you speak about from the mid thirties of the last century... Well, I think I know more about that, than you... Nevertheless, I would never compare my attitude towards any software to that one. These are fully different things. Indeed I learned to adapt and to use the software my customers demand from me. Some months ago I was asked to install Across. Well, I tried, but it wasn't easy. Despite the support from Across (trhough my customer, not directly for me) I was not able to manage the problem, until I posted it here on ProZ. And with the help from the colleagues here Across was then eventually installed. So if I don't have a support contract and a hotline available I ask friends for help. And of course help others, when they ask. This way many problems, which would have appeared to be huge before, are not so big now. This way I also learned to use the software I need much better.
| | | | Stanislav Pokorny
Csehország
Local time: 15:33
angol - cseh
+ ...
|
*) a system that is stable, irrespective of the other programs that are running
*) a system that doesn´t make other programs unstable
*) a system that is at least usable in a basic version without having followed a 3 day course (the 3 day course can be kept for getting to know the intricate parts....i.e. for the real specialists)
*) a system that can be easily installed or reinstalled for that matter, without running the risk of having a heart attack when having to reinstall everything 24 hours before a strict deadline, and running into licensing problems that shouldn´t exist in the first place
*) a system that produces understandable file structures in places where you expect them, so that you don´t have to spend hours trying to find back your work....because you forgot to check one of the boxes in one of the 1000 menus and submenus
*) a system that boasts an actual helpdesk and not a KB where you don´t find sh*t (try solving licensing problems as I recently did), without having to call all around the globe (I simply dread the next phone bill) before finding someone on the other side of the Atlantic who is actually friendly enough to solve a problem in a sec, a problem that shouldn´t have existed
*) a system that has a mail answering service that actually tries to solve problems instead of trying to sell you an upgrade, pretending that service contracts can only be purchased when upgrading....
*) a system that....
... |
|
We all dream of anything like that. Please let me know once you find one...
| I am a translator and a (civil) engineer, not a computer specialist. I haven´t got the slightest intention of going back to engineering school in order to be able to use a CAT. |
|
And do you still stand at the drawing board, or do you use CAD? I believe if the latter is true, you must find Trados a real piece of cake.
To reply to the original topic:
My first project in Studio: Open a document > Assign a TM > Assign a TB > Translate > Review > Save as target > Done. No offense, but if that sounds complicated to anybody, I guess a typewriter (and please, a mechanical not electric one) could be the right choice. Uhm, I was accused of arrogance in one of the older threads. Please don't understand this as being arrogant, I'm only trying to be pragmatic.
[Upraveno: 2009-11-05 00:01 GMT]
| | | | | A témához tartozó oldalak: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator | My first project in SDL Studio 2009 (Trados) |
