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What's your opinion on machine translation and quality?
Thread poster: Daniela Zambrini
Orrin Cummins
Orrin Cummins  Identity Verified
Japan
Local time: 20:21
Japanese to English
+ ...
Not sure, actually Jul 4, 2014

Dan Lucas wrote:

Orrin Cummins wrote:
Nuance's site is showing DNS 12 Premium on sale right now for $180. This pales in comparison to the price of Microsoft Office, Trados, etc. You do need it, though, and not Home.

The edition comparison doesn't seem to show any major improvements in Premium compared to Home?

http://www.nuance.com/for-business/by-product/dragon/product-resources/edition-comparison/index.htm


I think in past versions there was more of a difference, but I'm not sure actually what the advantage is, now that you mention it.

For one thing, though, you can't backup or export your user profiles with the Home version. Dragon gets better the more you train your voice, so if your profile got corrupted or you had to do a clean install that would be a fairly significant setback. Then again, if you are periodically backing up your entire system as a complete disk image (we are all doing that, right?), maybe this wouldn't matter anyway.

Premium can also read back (text-to-speech) your documents, which some say is nice for proofreading. Admittedly, I do not use this feature.

Summary: buy Home and let us know how it goes


 
Kirti Vashee
Kirti Vashee  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 04:21
Samples Jul 8, 2014

@bernhard you said:

So show me the result of one of those super MTs,


Not sure I would characterize these as samples of super MT -- but they are indeed customized and domain focused so they do produce better quality output than you would generally see from Google and should be easier to post-edit than many examples of MT that are shared.

e.g. Travel Domain EN to ES MT system

Source

All studios are equipped... See more
@bernhard you said:

So show me the result of one of those super MTs,


Not sure I would characterize these as samples of super MT -- but they are indeed customized and domain focused so they do produce better quality output than you would generally see from Google and should be easier to post-edit than many examples of MT that are shared.

e.g. Travel Domain EN to ES MT system

Source

All studios are equipped with a small kitchen, fridge and separate bathroom.
The hotels facilities include an outdoor swimming pool and a beauty parlour.
Enjoy typical French cuisine in the traditional restaurant Aux Trois Cochons.
The hotel is in the heart of the historical centre, near to all major attractions.
The hotel is located at the heart of the Huangpu District, close to Nanpu Bridge.
Apartments are in very good condition, well equipped and furnished to a very good standard.
The rooms are also fully equipped with TV, Telephone, Air conditional, Refrigerator and mini bar.
Spice Market Buffet offers a mix of oriental and western style cuisine.
Contemporary and friendly, our Novotel Cafe will tempt you with its original and varied menu.
The hotel always uses the flower arrangements in the lobby for its promotional activities.

MT of above source sentences:

Todos los estudios están equipados con una pequeña cocina, nevera y un baño independiente.
Las instalaciones del hotel incluyen una piscina exterior y un salón de belleza.
Disfrute de la típica cocina francesa en el restaurante tradicional Aux Trois Cochons.
El hotel está en el corazón del centro histórico, cerca de todas las atracciones principales.
El hotel está situado en el corazón del distrito de Huangpu, cerca de puente Nanpu.
Los apartamentos están en muy buenas condiciones, bien equipados y amueblados a un nivel muy bueno.
Las habitaciones también están completamente equipadas con TV, teléfono, aire acondicionado, nevera y minibar.
Spice Market buffet ofrece una mezcla de cocina de estilo oriental y occidental.
Coetáneo y amable, nuestra cafetería Novotel le tentará con sus originales y variados menús.
El hotel siempre utiliza los arreglos florales en el vestíbulo para sus actividades promocionales.



Another set of source sentences from an English to Portuguese IT engine

Source

Next to the lab that you want to view, click View Schedule.
Select the content that you want to share in the main training session.
Specifies that My Meetings is not available in the user's My WebEx area.
It can take a considerable amount of time to batch import or export.
Specifies that you want to create a presentation using the On-Demand Module.
Click Yes to confirm that you want to delete the account.
Specifies the password to view or download the recording.
To save the changes you make, click Save.
How can I learn about the fields on the Meetings Options page?
In the Language drop-down list, select another language.


MT of these sentences:

Ao lado do laboratório que você deseja exibir, clique em exibir agenda.
Selecione o conteúdo que deseja compartilhar na sessão de treinamento principal.
Especifica que minhas reuniões não está disponível na área meu Webex do usuário.
Pode levar um tempo considerável para importar ou exportar em lote.
Especifica se você deseja criar uma apresentação usando o módulo sob demanda.
Clique em sim para confirmar que você deseja excluir a conta.
Especifica a senha para exibir ou baixar a gravação.
Para salvar as alterações feitas, clique em salvar.
Como posso obter informações sobre os campos da página opções de reunião?
Na lista suspensa idioma, selecione outro idioma.



And a few samples from an EN to DE Info Tech MT engine which is much more difficult direction for MT engines


An alternate host can start the meeting and act as the host.
Individual reports will be kept for 3 months on the server.
Select the application you want to share from the list of available application.
Sign in to the site you want to use.
What is the difference between inserting files and using a URL?
Additional bandwidth might be required based on your usage.
They are listed as additional contacts, to help the members.
Please delete one or more contacts and try again.
Then invite attendees to use the reserved computers during the scheduled time.
You can stop an attendee from annotating shared software at any time.
Click this icon to change any information about the recording that appears in this list.

Unedited MT below:

Alternative Gastgeber können das Meeting starten und als Gastgeber handeln.
Individuelle Berichte für 3 Monate gehalten wird, auf dem Server.
Wählen Sie die Applikation aus, die sie teilen möchten, wählen Sie aus der Liste der verfügbaren Applikationen.
Melden Sie sich bei der Site, die Sie verwenden möchten.
Welcher Unterschied besteht zwischen dem Einfügen von Dateien und dem Verwenden eines URL?
Zusätzliche Bandbreite erforderlich sein könnten, basierend auf ihre Nutzung.
Sie werden als zusätzliche Kontakte aufgeführt, um den Mitgliedern zu helfen.
Bitte löschen Sie einen oder mehrere Kontakte, und versuchen Sie es erneut.
Dann laden Sie Teilnehmer ein, die reservierten Computer verwenden während der angesetzten Zeit.
Sie können keine Kommentierung von geteilter Software durch einen Teilnehmer jederzeit.
Klicken Sie auf dieses Symbol, um die Informationen zur Aufzeichnung zu ändern, die in dieser Liste angezeigt.



In the hands of experts these systems will get better as error feedback is given or simply by looking at corrections. The objective is not to replace the human, but rather to raise his/her productivity

If you stay in the general domain the accuracy of the MT system will continue to increase but if you were to use the ravel system to do IT domain work you will get terrible results.







[Edited at 2014-07-08 00:54 GMT] ▲ Collapse


 
Siegfried Armbruster
Siegfried Armbruster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 12:21
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam
Thank you for your openess Jul 8, 2014

Kirti Vashee wrote:

And a few samples from an EN to DE Info Tech MT engine which is much more difficult direction for MT engines


An alternate host can start the meeting and act as the host.
Individual reports will be kept for 3 months on the server.
Select the application you want to share from the list of available application.
Sign in to the site you want to use.
What is the difference between inserting files and using a URL?
Additional bandwidth might be required based on your usage.
They are listed as additional contacts, to help the members.
Please delete one or more contacts and try again.
Then invite attendees to use the reserved computers during the scheduled time.
You can stop an attendee from annotating shared software at any time.
Click this icon to change any information about the recording that appears in this list.


I took the liberty and ran your English source through Google translate.

Unedited output from Google translate


Eine alternative Host kann die Sitzung und als Host starten.
Individuelle Berichte werden für 3 Monate auf dem Server aufbewahrt werden.
Wählen Sie die Anwendung, die Sie aus der Liste der verfügbaren Anwendungs ​​teilen wollen.
Melden Sie sich auf der Website, die Sie verwenden möchten.
Was ist der Unterschied zwischen Einfügen von Dateien und über eine URL?
Zusätzliche Bandbreite könnte auf der Grundlage Ihrer Nutzung erforderlich.
Sie werden als zusätzliche Kontakte, die Mitglieder helfen aufgelistet.
Bitte löschen Sie einen oder mehrere Kontakte und erneut versuchen.
Dann laden Sie die Teilnehmer, die Vorbehalts Computer während der geplanten Zeit.
Sie können einen Teilnehmer aus Kommentierung freigegebenen Software jederzeit stoppen.
Klicken Sie auf dieses Symbol, um alle Informationen über die Aufnahme, die in dieser Liste angezeigt wird, ändern.


Ok, it is different, but to be honest, I see no real difference in quality between the output from GT and from the customized MT system you used. Both texts would require major editing. I would have expected better results from the customized system.


 
Michelle Kusuda
Michelle Kusuda  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:21
English to Spanish
+ ...
MT = Electronic dictionary (E-Dic)! Jul 8, 2014

Dear colleagues, start letting the world know about what MT (Machine Translation) is. MT, in terms any 10 year old would understand, is nothing more than an electronic dictionary. It should be marketed as such and not used to scam companies and translators alike.

By using the term Machine Translation it leads corporate buyers to assume that they can bring down the cost of translation. MT is nothing more than an electronic dictionary that can be customized to include the client's te
... See more
Dear colleagues, start letting the world know about what MT (Machine Translation) is. MT, in terms any 10 year old would understand, is nothing more than an electronic dictionary. It should be marketed as such and not used to scam companies and translators alike.

By using the term Machine Translation it leads corporate buyers to assume that they can bring down the cost of translation. MT is nothing more than an electronic dictionary that can be customized to include the client's terminology. Before it was given the improper name of Machine Translation it was called a "glossary". MT is nothing more than an automated search and replace feature. The human translator still has to unscramble the results and adapt it according to context.

A customizable electronic dictionary?

[Edited at 2014-07-08 08:28 GMT]
Collapse


 
Jeff Allen
Jeff Allen  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 12:21
Multiplelanguages
+ ...
MT is not a bilingual electronic dictionary Jul 8, 2014

Michelle Kusuda wrote:

Dear colleagues, start letting the world know about what MT (Machine Translation) is. MT, in terms any 10 year old would understand, is nothing more than an electronic dictionary. It should be marketed as such and not used to scam companies and translators alike.

By using the term Machine Translation it leads corporate buyers to assume that they can bring down the cost of translation. MT is nothing more than an electronic dictionary that can be customized to include the client's terminology. Before it was given the improper name of Machine Translation it was called a "glossary". MT is nothing more than an automated search and replace feature. The human translator still has to unscramble the results and adapt it according to context.

A customizable electronic dictionary?

[Edited at 2014-07-08 08:28 GMT]


Michelle, you are quite mistaken about MT as your definition provides an additional type at a more basic level than what I have explained in this video which I created last week:

The different types of Computer Generated Translation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po0mEXwl9Dk

Bilingual electronic dictionaries are another type of tool and every MT company I have worked for and know of has fought to make the separation distinct, including a very hot round table debate at AMTA1998 which led to the creation of the 16 versions of the Compendium of Translation Software.

And there is still another type of MT (Knowledge-based semantics) which is a bit more complicated.

Hopefully this video will demystify the fuzzy definitions of MT which keep floating around in the professional translator community, and among other industries as well.

Jeff


 
Michelle Kusuda
Michelle Kusuda  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:21
English to Spanish
+ ...
Nice video, nice explanation of difference in systems, same result: search and replace! Jul 8, 2014

I enjoyed the video.

However, regardless of whether it is ruled based, statistical, etc. The end result is nothing but a replacement. It should not be called translation; a translation tool/aid, yes. I say that because unless the target language document faithfully translates the source document with proper grammar, proper usage, proper context, etc., it is not a translation but a text subjected to computational algorithms that replaces terms or phrases from one language into
... See more
I enjoyed the video.

However, regardless of whether it is ruled based, statistical, etc. The end result is nothing but a replacement. It should not be called translation; a translation tool/aid, yes. I say that because unless the target language document faithfully translates the source document with proper grammar, proper usage, proper context, etc., it is not a translation but a text subjected to computational algorithms that replaces terms or phrases from one language into another.

Let's face it, as it is currently called, it makes people believe that if they buy those programs they can automate translation and dispense of the translator. Also, something else that is not being addressed is the fact that even with a perfectly matched document, the translator still needs to check it against source for accuracy, and that will always limit output.

I know that after a certain number of pages/words proofreading a large document my brain calls for a break.
Collapse


 
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:21
Member (2004)
English to Italian
Kirti... Jul 8, 2014

can you run into Italian (from EN) as well, please? I'm very curious now... thanks!

[Edited at 2014-07-08 12:51 GMT]


 
B D Finch
B D Finch  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 12:21
French to English
+ ...
MT disappearing up its own rear end? Jul 8, 2014

John Fossey wrote:

There's another self-defeating problem cropping up in MT. The whole basis of MT is a corpus of previously translated works that provide a statistical basis for the translation. The corpus shows that when a certain phrase or sequence of words appears in the source text, there is a statistical probability of another certain phrase or sequence of words appearing in the target.

But what's happening over time is that the corpus of translated texts is including texts which were themselves machine translated! This means that the mediocrity of MT is being self-reinforced - preventing the progress the MT developers are looking for. I suspect that as this happens whatever value MT had is plateauing, and in fact it may have already peaked. I think we have already seen GT in particular hit a plateau - I don't think there has been any meaningful improvement in its renderings for some time now.


Could this explain why Linguee is throwing up more and more rubbish and, therefore, contrary to what I would have expected, becoming less rather than more useful as time goes by?


 
Bernhard Sulzer
Bernhard Sulzer  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:21
English to German
+ ...
Another possible drawback: the impact on our own language skills Jul 8, 2014

B D Finch wrote:

John Fossey wrote:

....

But what's happening over time is that the corpus of translated texts is including texts which were themselves machine translated! This means that the mediocrity of MT is being self-reinforced - preventing the progress the MT developers are looking for. I suspect that as this happens whatever value MT had is plateauing, and in fact it may have already peaked. I think we have already seen GT in particular hit a plateau - I don't think there has been any meaningful improvement in its renderings for some time now.


Could this explain why Linguee is throwing up more and more rubbish and, therefore, contrary to what I would have expected, becoming less rather than more useful as time goes by?


Looking at (for now still mostly) mangled-up language (working with MT) may not be good for one's own thinking process and writing style. I don't have any data on this, but looking at hundreds and eventually thousands of pages (not me) of still mostly very poorly written and often meaningless language, I wonder what it would do to your own thinking process and language skills. Would you be losing your edge, would you become more like the machine so to speak?! And for that matter, what would happen to all the actual finished translations - especially with regard to style when it counts.
I am not saying you shouldn't use software/CAT tools that can help. But beginning your work by reading a greatly incorrect and poorly written word-mix in the target language (and that's what MT is these days) doesn't seem to strike me as the best way to maintain your own professional writing level. Dulling one's mind seems more like it.

Again, from my point of view. I usually don't deal with simple or short sentences.

B


 
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:21
Member (2004)
English to Italian
no impact... Jul 8, 2014


Looking at (for now still mostly) mangled-up language (working with MT) may not be good for one's own thinking process and writing style. I don't have any data on this, but looking at hundreds and eventually thousands of pages (not me) of still mostly very poorly written and often meaningless language, I wonder what it would do to your own thinking process and language skills. Would you be losing your edge, would you become more like the machine so to speak?! And for that matter, what would happen to all the actual finished translations - especially with regard to style when it counts.
I am not saying you shouldn't use software/CAT tools that can help. But beginning your work by reading a greatly incorrect and poorly written word-mix in the target language (and that's what MT is these days) doesn't seem to strike me as the best way to maintain your own professional writing level. Dulling one's mind seems more like it.

Again, from my point of view. I usually don't deal with simple or short sentences.

B


You have to remember that, in the present state, MT's usability is limited... some sentences will only need some editing, some quite a lot and the majority will have to be re-translated... I don't think a translator would lose his/her thinking process... at least not right now...


 
Giles Watson
Giles Watson  Identity Verified
Italy
Local time: 12:21
Italian to English
In memoriam
Good point Jul 8, 2014

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

I am not saying you shouldn't use software/CAT tools that can help. But beginning your work by reading a greatly incorrect and poorly written word-mix in the target language (and that's what MT is these days) doesn't seem to strike me as the best way to maintain your own professional writing level. Dulling one's mind seems more like it.



Good point. Translating effectively usually requires considerable unpicking and reordering of the thought - as opposed to the words - in the source text.



Again, from my point of view. I usually don't deal with simple or short sentences.



That's German for you


 
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL
Giovanni Guarnieri MITI, MIL  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:21
Member (2004)
English to Italian
yes... Jul 8, 2014

Giles Watson wrote:

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

I am not saying you shouldn't use software/CAT tools that can help. But beginning your work by reading a greatly incorrect and poorly written word-mix in the target language (and that's what MT is these days) doesn't seem to strike me as the best way to maintain your own professional writing level. Dulling one's mind seems more like it.



Good point. Translating effectively usually requires considerable unpicking and reordering of the thought - as opposed to the words - in the source text.



but when the sentence is unusable, you apply the same thought process as in translation... in fact, you would develop a different skill, whilst preserving the original one...


 
TranslateThis
TranslateThis  Identity Verified
Local time: 06:21
Spanish to English
+ ...
MT post-editing jobs are for masochists Jul 8, 2014

Michelle Kusuda wrote:
I know that after a certain number of pages/words proofreading a large document my brain calls for a break.


I am not against MT per se. Its mediocre output does have its uses, but I wonder if MT post-editing can be considered a new form of torture.

Why? Because it is extremely draining, at least for me. I am speaking from experience. I used to work on a still on-going humongous project for a large LSP with regular work every week. The rates were not bad at all I signed up out of curiosity. I thought it would get easier over time, right? Wrong. It was very taxing. I always felt exhausted after one or two hours of uninterrupted work. In my opinion it does not even remotely compare to translating or proofreading human-translated documents. The rate for MT post-editing would have to be twice my regular hourly rate for me to even consider such work. But I probably would not accept anyway. Life is short and I want to enjoy what I do every day, at least to some extent. This type of work was not enjoyable at all and last year I decided to quit.

Another issue is that this particular LSP keeps changing the payment grid and other parameters, so my colleagues end up earning less and less per hour. Just a real-life observation. Draw your own conclusions.

Unfortunately another large LSP has just announced that they are going to start implementing MT as well. It’s too bad, because I have been working on this particular account for several years. It's a worrying trend, but apparently there are plenty of masochists out there!


 
Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 12:21
French to English
Only too true! Jul 8, 2014

Bernhard Sulzer wrote:

B D Finch wrote:

John Fossey wrote:

....

But what's happening over time is that the corpus of translated texts is including texts which were themselves machine translated! This means that the mediocrity of MT is being self-reinforced - preventing the progress the MT developers are looking for. I suspect that as this happens whatever value MT had is plateauing, and in fact it may have already peaked. I think we have already seen GT in particular hit a plateau - I don't think there has been any meaningful improvement in its renderings for some time now.


Could this explain why Linguee is throwing up more and more rubbish and, therefore, contrary to what I would have expected, becoming less rather than more useful as time goes by?


Looking at (for now still mostly) mangled-up language (working with MT) may not be good for one's own thinking process and writing style. I don't have any data on this, but looking at hundreds and eventually thousands of pages (not me) of still mostly very poorly written and often meaningless language, I wonder what it would do to your own thinking process and language skills. Would you be losing your edge, would you become more like the machine so to speak?! And for that matter, what would happen to all the actual finished translations - especially with regard to style when it counts.
I am not saying you shouldn't use software/CAT tools that can help. But beginning your work by reading a greatly incorrect and poorly written word-mix in the target language (and that's what MT is these days) doesn't seem to strike me as the best way to maintain your own professional writing level. Dulling one's mind seems more like it.

Again, from my point of view. I usually don't deal with simple or short sentences.

B


I distinctly remember an argument on a Proz forum (involving "declare") where quite a lot of people were adamant that a certain expression was good English. Looking more closely at the many hits the expression got on Google, it was plainly obvious that they were all from the English pages of Dutch, German or French websites. None of those rooting for the expression were living in a country where English was the native language. So those native English translators had obviously been infected by the language they were hearing on a day-to-day basis.

When I have to do a translation in a field I'm not familiar with inside out, I start by reading up a few websites ending in .co.uk on that subject. This way, I am impregnated with the style and some of the terms will have sunk in too. The translation flows much more smoothly as a result.

If the bumpy, word-for-word translations I often find myself proofreading are anything to go by, there aren't that many translators who bother with this stage.

I would go as far as to say that sometimes the bumpy prose I'm proofreading suddenly smooths out into a more naturally flowing style. My hunch is that the translator had to do some extensive research at just that point. I always think it's a pity they didn't then go back to iron out the clunky prose they had produced up to then.


 
Kay Denney
Kay Denney  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 12:21
French to English
Aw, come on, Giles Jul 8, 2014

Giles Watson wrote:



Again, from my point of view. I usually don't deal with simple or short sentences.



That's German for you


Aw, come on, Giles, he didn't put the verb as the second idea!


 
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