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ysun  Identity Verified
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Nation Dec 14, 2014

QHE wrote:

我是觉得这句解说旁白是以 “in modern terms” 来起始的, 所以选择了 “国家” 和 “主权国” 来对应 "country", and "nation"。直译为: 依照现代的术语来讲, 中国当时是一个国家, 但不是一个主权国家。
个人的一点看法和大家探讨。

你的说法很有道理。看来,还是得用对应的术语将 "country" 和 "nation" 分别表达出来。不过,是否将 nation 译成“主权国家”,还值得探讨。虽然九一八事变之前的中国并不是一个主权完整的国家,但这并非是日本帝国能夠入侵的主要原因。从整部影片看来,制片者描述了中国从分裂趋向于 unification 的过程,并认为在卢沟桥事变时,中国基本上达到了 unification。所以,我认为,在翻译时还是应该设法把这层意思表达出来。

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/nation
Nation
A large aggregate of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular country or territory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation


[Edited at 2014-12-15 00:28 GMT]


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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国家 vs 国度 Dec 14, 2014



http://baike.baidu.com/view/34134.htm


国度指政治地理意义上的国家。不管什么阶级性质的国家,都是由人口、领土、主权、政权等几个要素构成的。

人口,就是一定数量和质量的固定居民,是国家赖以存在和发展的社会基础。领土,就是一个国家的居民永久居住和国家行使权力的确定地域,是国家赖以存在和发展的基本物质条件。主权,就是一个国家独立自主地处理自己的对内对外事务的最高权力,没有主权,就不能成为一个国家。主权是国家赖以存在和发展的最基本最重要的条件,是国家的生命和灵魂。政权,就是治理国家的组织机构。一定的政权机关是一个国家赖以存在和发展的组织保障。国家离不开国度,又不同于国度。国家是按阶级性质来划分的,国度是按政治地理意义来划分的。把国家等同于国度,就抹杀了国家的阶级性。



I haven't really thought this through. But roughly speaking, I would translate country to 国家,and nation to 国度. I think it's by and large consistent with what you guys are saying.


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QHE
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nation Dec 14, 2014

受到孙先生和 Steve 的启发, 让我想到 "nation" 在这个语境里或许有点类似于"commonwealth" 的含义, 于是又想出了几个词; 有的多少有点偏题, 供参考吧。

共同联盟(同盟), 共和国, 政治共同体


[Edited at 2014-12-14 23:39 GMT]

[Edited at 2014-12-15 02:25 GMT]


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Nation Dec 15, 2014

ysun wrote:

In this documentary film commissioned by the United States government in the 1940s, the narrator said that “in modern terms, China was a country, but not yet a nation”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9yKqcs699k



Sorry guys, for jumping into the discussion half-cocked like that. I really wasn't paying close enough attention. The way it's so quiet these days, I really have very little excuse for that.

So please accept my apology, especially Yueyin, for the out-of-context comment on country vs. nation (国家 vs 国度).

Picking up where I should have ...



“in modern terms, China was a country, but not yet a nation



http://www.zdic.net/c/6/ee/245091.htm

 邦国(邦國) 
 bāng guó
 ㄅㄤ ㄍㄨㄛˊ
词语解释

国家。《诗·大雅·瞻卬》:“人之云亡,邦国殄瘁。” 晋 刘琨 《劝进表》:“或多难以固邦国,或殷忧以启圣明。” 唐 杨炯 《少室山少姨庙碑》:“瑶臺美化,阐邦国之风猷;银牓嘉声,茂君亲之典礼。” 清 孙枝蔚 《汪舟次以所爱笼内锦鸡命余赋诗》:“邦国养贤亦如此,应须报答见奇才。” 鲁迅 《坟·文化偏至论》:“人既发扬踔厉矣,则邦国亦以兴起。”


http://www.zdic.net/c/6/ee/245092.htm

邦族
bāng zú
ㄅㄤ ㄗㄨˊ
词语解释

1.邦国宗族。《诗·小雅·黄鸟》:“言旋言归,復我邦族。” 孔颖达 疏:“故我今回族,我今还归,復反我邦国宗族矣。”《三国志·吴志·陆逊传》“本名 议 ,世 江 东大族” 裴松之 注引《陆氏世颂》:“父 骏 ,淳懿信厚,为邦族所怀。” 宋 范成大 《舅母太夫人方氏挽词》之一:“四德仪邦族,三迁奠里门。” 清 吕履恒 《牛口谷》诗:“终岁许许,不寧邦族。”
2.籍贯姓氏。 清 蒲松龄 《聊斋志异·司文郎》:“展问邦族,云:‘ 登州 宋 姓。’” 清 和邦额 《夜谭随录·谭九》:“ 谭 曰:‘听姥言似非京师人,娘子则又旗粧,敢问邦族?’媪曰:‘诚如郎説,身本 凤阳 侯 氏。’”





那么,“Nation” 在这种语境中 翻作 “邦国、 邦族” 之类又如何?


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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一盘散沙、 四分五裂 ... Dec 15, 2014

Yueyin 这个主意也非常好。 依我看是翻译重在 “取其意” 的典范手法(即高手)。

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ysun  Identity Verified
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随便聊聊 Dec 15, 2014

wherestip wrote:

ysun wrote:

In this documentary film commissioned by the United States government in the 1940s, the narrator said that “in modern terms, China was a country, but not yet a nation”:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9yKqcs699k



Sorry guys, for jumping into the discussion half-cocked like that. I really wasn't paying close enough attention. The way it's so quiet these days, I really have very little excuse for that.

So please accept my apology, especially Yueyin, for the out-of-context comment on country vs. nation (国家 vs 国度).

Steve,

你言重了。我只不过是看电影看到这句话时一时心血来潮,就提出来与大家随便聊聊(也许这也是一种职业病 )。所以,十分欢迎你发表见解,谈不上什么 apology。

我很爱看这类历史纪录片,尤其是以前在国内看不到的影片,因为其中反映的许多史实颠覆了以前灌输到我脑子里的许多东西。我认为这部纪录片还是比较客观地反映了史实。据说中央电视台曾播放过这部片子,但有所剪辑。


[Edited at 2014-12-15 18:49 GMT]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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意译 vs. 直译 Dec 15, 2014

Steve,

我前面提到,电影 Pearl Harbor 的中文字幕译得很好。其中广泛地采用了意译。对于许多电影台词,恐怕意译的效果会比直译更好。

这部纪录片(Why We Fight)的解说词也写得很好。其中有些话只能意译,无法直译。例如,从第6:50分钟起,有这样一段话: “China is now our fighting ally. Or more accurately, we are China. China has been fighting our enemy, Japan, for seven long years.” 其中,“more accurately, we are China”这句话,不可能直译为“更确切地说,我们就是中国”,而只能意译为“更确切地说,我们与中国同生死、共命运”,或“更确切地说,我们与中国处于同一条战壕”,或其他诸如此类的话。


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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同生死、共命运 Dec 15, 2014

ysun wrote:

Steve,

我前面提到,电影 Pearl Harbor 的中文字幕译得很好。其中广泛地采用了意译。对于许多电影台词,恐怕意译的效果会比直译更好。

这部纪录片(Why We Fight)的解说词也写得很好。其中有些话只能意译,无法直译。例如,从第6:50分钟起,有这样一段话: “China is now our fighting ally. Or more accurately, we are China. China has been fighting our enemy, Japan, for seven long years.” 其中,“more accurately, we are China”这句话,不可能直译为“更确切地说,我们就是中国”,而只能意译为“更确切地说,我们与中国同生死、共命运”,或“更确切地说,我们与中国处于同一条战壕”,或其他诸如此类的话。



Indeed, I totally agree with you. That's an excellent example you gave.

To be precise, there really is no such thing as "直译", there's only something as "照字面翻". But that is not the true purpose of translation. The term "verbatim" is understandable though, as a majority of folks use the "verbatim" conversion step as a crutch in their translation process. IMO, the more skilled a translator is, the less he/she has to go through that intermediate step.


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ysun  Identity Verified
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"照字面翻" Dec 16, 2014

wherestip wrote:

To be precise, there really is no such thing as "直译", there's only something as "照字面翻". But that is not the true purpose of translation. The term "verbatim" is understandable though, as a majority of folks use the "verbatim" conversion step as a crutch in their translation process. IMO, the more skilled a translator is, the less he/she has to go through that intermediate step.

Steve,

我所谓的直译,与 "照字面翻" 差不太多。像我这样主要从事技术资料翻译的人,不敢翻得太灵活。否则,有些校稿者很可能会把我的译稿改得一塌糊涂。所以,在实际工作中,拿捏好直译和意译的尺寸,也是件不容易的事情。


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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adhering to the source Dec 16, 2014

ysun wrote:

Steve,

我所谓的直译,与 "照字面翻" 差不太多。像我这样主要从事技术资料翻译的人,不敢翻得太灵活。否则,有些校稿者很可能会把我的译稿改得一塌糊涂。所以,在实际工作中,拿捏好直译和意译的尺寸,也是件不容易的事情。


Yueyin,

I think we're basically talking about the same thing. I wouldn't think of a correct translation as an outcome of "直译" even though a strong correlation of words and syntax may exist between the source and the target. IMO, a correct target text that closely adheres to the source text is first and foremost "意译".

Just my opinion about the essence of translation in a nutshell. I'm sure many people would disagree with me on this.


[Edited at 2014-12-16 01:45 GMT]


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QHE
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同意 Dec 16, 2014

ysun wrote:随便聊聊
wherestip wrote:

Sorry guys, for jumping into the discussion half-cocked like that. I really wasn't paying close enough attention. The way it's so quiet these days, I really have very little excuse for that.

So please accept my apology, especially Yueyin, for the out-of-context comment on country vs. nation (国家 vs 国度).


Steve,
你言重了。我只不过是看电影看到这句话时一时心血来潮,就提出来与大家随便聊聊(也许这也是一种职业病 )。所以,十分欢迎你发表见解,谈不上什么 apology。



是啊, 各抒己见总能启发思路, 不存在 apology 的问题. 况且现在还知道了国家与国度的区别。


wherestip wrote:

I really wasn't paying close enough attention. The way it's so quiet these days, I really have very little excuse for that.


Excuse? hmm… how about that newly acquired 爱不释手的 iPad Air 2?

[Edited at 2014-12-16 04:16 GMT]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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adhering to the source Dec 16, 2014

Steve,

我同意你的意见。不过,不同的人对“直译”的定义也许会有不同的理解。你的标准也许较高。无论如何,“直译”最起码还是得把原文意思翻准确了。怕的就是那种在未理解原文意思之前就逐字翻译。例如,有这样一个常见的口号: “Our patients are at the center of all we do.” 结果有人就将其翻译成“我们的患者是在所有我们做的中心”,让人不知其所云。我用 Google Translate 试着翻译了一下,结果发现倒比上述译文还强些:“我们的患者是在我们所做的一切的中心”。当然,这话仍然还有不少改进的余地。


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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对 "直译" 定义的不同理解 Dec 16, 2014

ysun wrote:

不过,不同的人对“直译”的定义也许会有不同的理解。你的标准也许较高。无论如何,“直译”最起码还是得把原文意思翻准确了。怕的就是那种在未理解原文意思之前就逐字翻译。



Indeed. That's how I always perceived the term "直译", meaning the person "未理解原文意思之前就逐字翻译", almost as bad as "照字面翻". To my ear it's always been a deprecating term.

"Chinglish" kind of falls in the same category for me. I used to cringe when I first saw it freely thrown about by folks on this website. But I've long been desensitized since.


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wherestip  Identity Verified
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Styli Dec 16, 2014

QHE wrote:

Excuse? hmm… how about that newly acquired 爱不释手的 iPad Air 2?



QHE,

I must say the novelty's been wearing off a little. I'm mostly a person that likes precision, and the capacitive touchscreen is a little too shaky/unpredictable for my taste, especially when lying down in bed. I've already sent for some styluses ... or is it styli?


[Edited at 2014-12-16 23:11 GMT]


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ysun  Identity Verified
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直译与意译 Dec 16, 2014

wherestip wrote:

ysun wrote:

不过,不同的人对“直译”的定义也许会有不同的理解。你的标准也许较高。无论如何,“直译”最起码还是得把原文意思翻准确了。怕的就是那种在未理解原文意思之前就逐字翻译。



Indeed. That's how I always perceived the term "直译", meaning the person "未理解原文意思之前就逐字翻译", almost as bad as "照字面翻". To my ear it's always been a deprecating term.

Steve,

以前,这里也有人对直译方式持否定态度。我想,其原因也许就在于对“直译”的定义有不同的理解。实际上, "未理解原文意思之前就逐字翻译"并不能算是直译,而是瞎译。在翻译界,对于直译与意译的定义似乎也并不完全一致。我比较同意以下说法。

http://baike.baidu.com/view/295412.htm

直译是既保持原文内容、又保持原文形式的翻译方法或翻译文字。意译,也称为自由翻译,它是只保持原文内容、不保持原文形式的翻译方法或翻译文字。


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