Pages in topic: [1 2 3 4] > | Will you ever/can you declare yourself as native speaker? Thread poster: Mari Noller
| Mari Noller United Kingdom Local time: 06:46 English to Norwegian + ...
I've looked through a lot of profiles here on proz and noticed how some say "I've lived in **** for X years so I consider myself a native speaker". Will you really ever be a native speaker of a language? (And please move this if it's in the wrong place) | | | Can Altinbay Local time: 02:46 Japanese to English + ... In memoriam
dinamin wrote: I've looked through a lot of profiles here on proz and noticed how some say "I've lived in **** for X years so I consider myself a native speaker". Will you really ever be a native speaker of a language? (And please move this if it's in the wrong place) My people are Russian Turks. I was born and raised in Japan, and have lived in the US for over 30 years. Test me against most native born Americans. You bet I declare myself a native speaker of English. After all this time, I sometimes take time to get a word or two out in Japanese, but I read difficult books in Japanese, and once I get into it, my Japanese flows very nicely. Yes, I am native in Japanese. | | | RHELLER United States Local time: 00:46 French to English + ... It depends... | Jun 3, 2005 |
It depends on the individual. I am not questioning Can, who is obviously gifted linguistically. Not everyone is. I know people who have lived in the U.S. for longer periods of time who continue to make very basic mistakes. I hope I am not offending anyone. That is not my intention. | | | Mari Noller United Kingdom Local time: 06:46 English to Norwegian + ... TOPIC STARTER
Of course it's not meant as an insult to anyone. Just a general wondering when you would declare yourself native. | |
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00000000 (X) English to French + ...
A native language is one you acquired in early childhood. Languages you didn't speak then will never become native. But you can convey the fact that your mastery of the language is in all respects that of a native speaker of equivalent educational level by using 'nativelike' instead of 'native'. So Can could describe her languages as native Japanese and nativelike English -- if I understood correctly. Best, Esther | | | Can Altinbay Local time: 02:46 Japanese to English + ... In memoriam I'm not offended | Jun 3, 2005 |
Rita Heller wrote: It depends on the individual. I am not questioning Can, who is obviously gifted linguistically. Not everyone is. I know people who have lived in the U.S. for longer periods of time who continue to make very basic mistakes. I hope I am not offending anyone. That is not my intention. And clearly I'm not saying that it's not a matter of individual cases. | | | Can Altinbay Local time: 02:46 Japanese to English + ... In memoriam
Esther Pfeffer wrote: A native language is one you acquired in early childhood. Languages you didn't speak then will never become native. But you can convey the fact that your mastery of the language is in all respects that of a native speaker of equivalent educational level by using 'nativelike' instead of 'native'. So Can could describe her languages as native Japanese and nativelike English -- if I understood correctly. Best, Esther Clearly I disagree. Actually, I have been educated in English all my life, so I began learning English at 6. By the way, I am not a she. | | | 00000000 (X) English to French + ... Studying a language is not the same as acquiring a native language | Jun 3, 2005 |
Can Altinbay wrote: Clearly I disagree. Actually, I have been educated in English all my life, so I began learning English at 6. By the way, I am not a she. Clearly I hadn't gotten the right idea from your description of your childhood in Japan with your Russian Turk parents. That didn't strike me as an environment for native English, but whatever... Best, Esther
[Edited at 2005-06-03 06:56] | |
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Samuel Murray Netherlands Local time: 07:46 Member (2006) English to Afrikaans + ... Native is nebulous | Jun 3, 2005 |
dinamin wrote: I've looked through a lot of profiles here on proz and noticed how some say "I've lived in **** for X years so I consider myself a native speaker". The definition of "native" speaker is nebulous. I believe that "native" speaking means that you (a) speak at least as well as the average person who grew up with the language and (b) you are currently living an a region where that language is a lingua franca. This "definition" of mine is problematic for translators who live abroad, but I think one might be able to substitute regular immersion for the latter... the thing is that even if you grew up as a speaker of X, but you no longer live in a region where X is regularly used by people around you and regularly seen in the media, you're likely to lose your feel for the language at some stage. On the other hand, having lived in a new culture or region for quite a number of years and having been forced to use their language and having been immersed by their media, does count for something. What language did you use at home in that new culture... the new culture's language or your original language? One might say one's native language is the one in which one is most capable of expressing oneself fully... but again this would pose problems when defining the abilities of people in bilingual countries, where one language is used for X and the other langauge is used for Y. | | | Can Altinbay Local time: 02:46 Japanese to English + ... In memoriam See, the problem is... | Jun 3, 2005 |
Esther Pfeffer wrote: Clearly I hadn't gotten the right idea from your description of your childhood in Japan with your Russian Turk parents. That didn't strike me as an environment for native English, but whatever... Best, Esther
[Edited at 2005-06-03 06:56] ...that I'm not going to get jobs telling potential clients that my English is "nativelike". My English is better than that of most of my neighbors. I'm not boasting. It's true, and many of them will support me in this. When clients ask for native speakers, they are asking for a particular level of ability in the language. As was discussed in another recent thread, this ability includes understanding of nuance, and being able to find the right words for the facts and ideas that are to be conveyed. Are we going to educate our clients not to expect "native" speakers? Should they hire a "native" speaker by your definition because he or she is "native"? Shouldn't they want someone who can do the job? I have encountered way too many technical writers with degrees in English whose writing is atrocious. So I continue to claim "native". Not "nativelike", but "native". | | | Marc P (X) Local time: 07:46 German to English + ... Will you ever/can you declare yourself as native speaker? | Jun 3, 2005 |
Can Altinbay wrote: When clients ask for native speakers, they are asking for a particular level of ability in the language. Exactly. It's not about where you were born or went to school, or the nationality of your mother. It's about how well you can write. Some people can manage that in more than one language, some in none. Marc | | | Can Altinbay Local time: 02:46 Japanese to English + ... In memoriam
MarcPrior wrote: Exactly. It's not about where you were born or went to school, or the nationality of your mother. It's about how well you can write. Some people can manage that in more than one language, some in none. Marc | |
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Mari Noller United Kingdom Local time: 06:46 English to Norwegian + ... TOPIC STARTER
I wouldn't say you are a native speaker of English. That would be a lie. From answers.com: "First language (native language, mother tongue, or vernacular) is the language a person learns first. Correspondingly, the person is called a native speaker of the language. Usually a child learns the basics of their first language from their family." You could call yourself bilingual, but not native bilingual. Which is my point.. Unless your parents spoke two... See more I wouldn't say you are a native speaker of English. That would be a lie. From answers.com: "First language (native language, mother tongue, or vernacular) is the language a person learns first. Correspondingly, the person is called a native speaker of the language. Usually a child learns the basics of their first language from their family." You could call yourself bilingual, but not native bilingual. Which is my point.. Unless your parents spoke two different languages in your childhood (or your parents spoke German at home and you grew up in England) you cannot claim a language you have studied for X number of years to be your native language, your mother tongue. 'Equivalent to native' might be more fitting though.. ▲ Collapse | | | sarahl (X) Local time: 23:46 English to French + ... Case-by-case basis | Jun 3, 2005 |
I agree with Rita that some people never learn. But I also agree with Can's definition. As far as I am concerned, he has more than one native language. FWIW Sarah | | | It's a question of your ability in the language | Jun 3, 2005 |
It doesn't matter what language you learnt as a young child. It's a question of whether you can translate as well as a native translator. I now don't think I'll ever make it in any of my foreign languages. I think I may have reached it, or at least come close, if I had not moved away from France and had stayed there another 20 years. At sixth form college I had an French teacher who spoke perfect English (no hint of an accent - no mistakes) despite only moving to Britain for university studies, ... See more It doesn't matter what language you learnt as a young child. It's a question of whether you can translate as well as a native translator. I now don't think I'll ever make it in any of my foreign languages. I think I may have reached it, or at least come close, if I had not moved away from France and had stayed there another 20 years. At sixth form college I had an French teacher who spoke perfect English (no hint of an accent - no mistakes) despite only moving to Britain for university studies, so although these cases are rare, I do believe there are cases in which someone may acquire a native tongue. ▲ Collapse | | | Pages in topic: [1 2 3 4] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Will you ever/can you declare yourself as native speaker? Wordfast Pro | Translation Memory Software for Any Platform
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